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OK here we go again-engine teardown & hack repair PART 2
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sb001
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: OK here we go again-engine teardown & hack repair PART 2 Reply with quote

So, many moons ago, I tried fixing up my engine a bit, by replacing cylinders/ pistons, lapping valves, taking short cuts, and ignoring people on here. About 2 weeks after that job, my engine blew up on the interstate. I rolled into a movie theater parking lot and went in to watch Captain America. Then I said screw it for awhile.

Now, I know lots of you have been on the edge of your seat waiting for my second attempt at hack repairs and now, months later, I have torn back into my engine. Following are some pics and although this post (like most) has been sarcastic in all seriousness I plan on tearing this thing completely down this time, and following the Tom Wilson book which I did not have last time, and listening to suggestions on here. So feel free.

OK, I pulled the engine in my garage this time so I didn't have some know it all telling me to short cut everything because I was using his shop.

Engine out:

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A little crusty on top but its a AS21 so its all good Cool

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OK when I had the engine trouble I did a compression test and got ZERO on number 3 cylinder so after pulling the heads that's what I looked at first. And here is what I found Shocked

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Close up photo:

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I will pull the cylinders tomorrow so I can take a better look. But looks like the edge of the piston simply melted, and is badly burned (as are the rest, in following pictures.)

Checked the valves and looks like bad pitting in #3 (right hand side):

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Close up:

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Here are 1 & 2, opinions on those?:

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Note also that this cylinder head has raised "lips" or whatever they are called around the valve seats, where the 3/4 head does NOT. Could this have caused any problems?

Here is #1 piston:

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And #2 piston:

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Everything looks pretty badly burned to me, don't know what caused it yet but any ideas are welcome plus any suggestions on what needs to be done for repair.

As stated earlier I hope to tear into the case tomorrow and will take more pics of whatever I find then.
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1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
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morymob
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks to have been run with a bad caseof pinging, timing too advanced??, Ping will break rings which twist cutting piston ring grooves & it shows a piece loose in cyl caught between piston & head , the blowby is like a torch burning away the piston edges. maybe comp on the hi side too, r pistons stock size or oversize as that will raise comp ?
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DeathTrap
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

valve seat looks loose
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75smith
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#3 valve seats look loose, #1&2 seats look fine

It looks like #3 was contacting the head for a while-you can match up some of the dimples in the head with the piston top, and the combustion chamber is clearly out lined--or did the piston let go(i.e did the pin fall out)

Do it right, do it once--unless you like overhauling the car every weekend...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oberservations.

You have (had) chinese P&Cs. You had too much timing, and burned that piston up, likely by "timing by ear" instead of a timing light. This is a common mistake.

The DVDA distributor you have is NOT compatible with 30 series carburetors.

Like other's posted, loose valve seat. This must be fixed by a machine shop, or the head replaced.

You will get a lot of great advice here, but it's up to you to follow it. Horse, water.
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sb001
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the info/ suggestions/ advice.

Here are a few more photos:

3/4 pistons (Looks to be lots of scoring on 3, some on 4):

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By comparison 1 & 2 look fairly clean

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(Going to replace them all anyway, don't worry!) Smile
In answer to posts:

morymob, pinging (timing too far advanced) could have been the cause, I drove it home from the shop last time with the timing set at about 10-15° ATDC instead of 0TDC where it was supposed to be. john at aircooled is correct, we didn;t have a timing light at the shop and I had one but left it at home so we set it more or less where it sounded right and then I checked it when I got home and discovered it was set that far off. Would it have only affected cylinder #3 though to the point where that piston melted but no others?

deathtrap & 75smith, thanks for pointing out the #3 valve seats. I am getting at least one new head for that side, might get both sides unless you think 1/2 head is OK. Can you (or anyone else) judge that by the pistons on that side? 75smith I checked the wrist pin on #3 piston and it seems to be OK. I would like to know how the piston banged against the head- that would also explain the knocking sound I heard when I first fired the engine back up after the last job ( I took a video of it):


Link


john, thanks for the suggestions- honestly I did quite a bit of research before buying my pistons/ cylinders, you are correct they were the Chinese AA Performance sets, but they seemed to have a pretty decent recommendation rating on here for DD use- the street rodders seemed to be the ones having problems with them. But point taken.
I do not have a DVDA distributor, at least according to Old Volks Home (I have brought up this subject several times on here.) My actual distributor (113905205AE) is listed as a SVDA, with only vacuum advance specifications listed on their site (no retard specs listed at all) and they refer to the vacuum HOSE (singular):

http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A1970A

However my vacuum canister IS a dual vacuum, and does indeed seem to be for a DVDA dizzy, but it is 07138 which is the correct match for my distributor at least according to OVH, and this chart:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/Bosch_Tune_Up_Parts/Bosch_Tune_Up_Parts.pdf

Have never really gotten an explanation as to why this is the case but all my parts seem to be correct-- just simply seems to be a dual vacuum canister matched up to a SVDA distributor. Go figure.

Thanks again all. I hope to have the case split sometime this week, we will see.
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1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor


Last edited by sb001 on Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DeathTrap
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mighta had a big air leak on that side or the head chamber smaller on the burned side
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Donnie strickland
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That cylinder has foreign object damage. Something got loose in there and was hammered against the head repeatedly.

If your timing was that far ATDC, that's bad. The engine would have gotten hot, as you now know.

I'm sure you realize this, but as John says you can't set timing by ear like a water-cooled car...this is the result.

Remember, no shortcuts this time. You'll get there, don't rush it.
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Frank Bassman
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Distributor... Reply with quote

Like John said your distributor and carburetor don't match up. Looking at your heads, I see you've got a single port intake setup. Only the 28 pict or 30 pict or H30/31 pict carbs will be stock carburetor options for your intake. The correct distributor you need for that setup would be a vacuum only unit. ( Like the 113 905 205 T or the 205M models.)

Your distributor is the later type and has the vacuum AND centrifugal advance mechanisms that are meant for the later dual port intake systems with their corresponding 34 pict carburetors. This mismatch is a big no-no and likely the cause of most, if not all, of your problems due to an incorrect timing issue.

Your other distributor option is a centrifugal-only unit like the 010, 019, or the more readily available 009. (Bosch) Sometimes there will be a flat spot using these types of distributors which is why most of us stay stock.

Either way, don't drive your newly assembled engine again with your old setup or you'll risk ending up tearing it down again and repeating the process...

Good luck!
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sb001
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donnie strickland wrote:
That cylinder has foreign object damage. Something got loose in there and was hammered against the head repeatedly.

If your timing was that far ATDC, that's bad. The engine would have gotten hot, as you now know.

I'm sure you realize this, but as John says you can't set timing by ear like a water-cooled car...this is the result.

Remember, no shortcuts this time. You'll get there, don't rush it.


Thanks, yeah I obviously regret doing it now, should have just left it until I could come back with my timing light. IF that's what happened, and it got so hot that the rings twisted or whatever on #3, I would still like to know why it only happened on #3 and not the others. (I do know that #3 on the single port engines are notorious for getting cooked first when the engine overheats.) And I would also like to know what got loose in there! The wrist pin is still intact, clips are there, valves don't appear bent, who knows..
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1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
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sb001
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor... Reply with quote

Frank Bassman wrote:
Like John said your distributor and carburetor don't match up. Looking at your heads, I see you've got a single port intake setup. Only the 28 pict or 30 pict or H30/31 pict carbs will be stock carburetor options for your intake. The correct distributor you need for that setup would be a vacuum only unit. ( Like the 113 905 205 T or the 205M models.)

Your distributor is the later type and has the vacuum AND centrifugal advance mechanisms that are meant for the later dual port intake systems with their corresponding 34 pict carburetors. This mismatch is a big no-no and likely the cause of most, if not all, of your problems due to an incorrect timing issue.

Your other distributor option is a centrifugal-only unit like the 010, 019, or the more readily available 009. (Bosch) Sometimes there will be a flat spot using these types of distributors which is why most of us stay stock.

Either way, don't drive your newly assembled engine again with your old setup or you'll risk ending up tearing it down again and repeating the process...

Good luck!


Thanks Frank,
I will humbly suggest you missed one vital part of my setup- I drive an autostick. On the 69-70 autosticks the stock distributor was indeed an SVDA, please check those links I posted earlier, or this chart from Andy (glutamodo on here):

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


they all show my setup with the correct Bosch 113905205AD or AE SVDA distributor. The correct matching carb for those autsotick setups was the 30 PICT 2 or 3, I have the 3. Obviously I screwed my engine up, but please trust me that the dizzy/ carb setup I have is 100% correct.
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1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
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Joe Bence
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing/assuming that the rod bearing on #3 is hammered.
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BWD
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing wrong with AA P&C's, I got some and they were dead nuts on weight wise! John sells AA, so I "think" he was meaning something else! I'm happy with them, I got them from AA! http://www.aapistons.com/
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Joe Bence
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choice of P&C brand etc was not the culprit in the demise of this engine.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cannot know if impact damage was first or later. Either way the piston hitting the head is another problem, or a third symptom??

I see welding and meddling of some kind in that left head. Replace both and lets have them match this time Wink

Reminds me of this other job I'm dealing with. The engine has 2 cracked cylinders and 3 destroyed pistons.
I have concluded it was burning the pistons due to leaking injectors, and also eating a bolt at the same time. Shocked That one was DOOMED. Engine assembler made several errors.
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morymob
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R u still using orig non dg house blower if its main reason #3. cooked, ones I ran into with dropped valve etc always #3.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you check the deck on this thing when you put it back together last time? Judging from the burn pattern on the #3, it looks like you were close to zero deck, if not slightnly negative. That burn pattern is exactly the shape of the chamber, and clean around the edges. That looks to me like the piston was touching the head....

I agree it looks like something was boucing around in the #3 to do that damage to the head, but that could have been chunks of melted piston...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BWD wrote:
Nothing wrong with AA P&C's, I got some and they were dead nuts on weight wise! John sells AA, so I "think" he was meaning something else! I'm happy with them, I got them from AA! http://www.aapistons.com/


Yes, they are good... no piston will stand debris in the combustion chamber, my bet is its a sparkplug tip..it ain't the deck height bashr, its a rod failing at the big or little end that caused that shadow.. that is the rod they beat the bushing back into position...you end up paying twice for hack..
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnypan wrote:
BWD wrote:
Nothing wrong with AA P&C's, I got some and they were dead nuts on weight wise! John sells AA, so I "think" he was meaning something else! I'm happy with them, I got them from AA! http://www.aapistons.com/


Yes, they are good... no piston will stand debris in the combustion chamber, my bet is its a sparkplug tip..it ain't the deck height bashr, its a rod failing at the big or little end that caused that shadow.. that is the rod they beat the bushing back into position...you end up paying twice for hack..


Well if we consider deck to be the space between the top of the piston and the head, a rod bushing going or a rod stretching to the point it allows piston to head contact would be a lack of deck Laughing
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60ragtop
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least you got the thread title right this time Wink
good luck on the rebuild
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maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked Wink
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