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srolfe
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Joined: July 26, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: phoenix
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 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:52 pm Post subject: Aftermarket Air Cleaner |
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Do any of you have a suggestion for an aftermarket Air Cleaner?
The one I have is missing pieces. I have a stock VW with 34 Pict 3 |
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
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Location: Oceanside
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:46 am Post subject: |
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I would recommend a stock air cleaner. Either find another one or find the parts you are missing.
The reason I recommend an original air cleaner is that when hooked up correctly, they heat incoming air. This in turn evaporates more fuel and increases fuel mileage. The heat also detures carb icing. They also provide the correct suction for the crankcase ventilation system. Lots of guys who put on aftermarket air cleaners find that crankcase fumes now spray out a fine oil mist inside the engine compartment.
With a 34 PICT you would want a either a 1971 oil bath aircleaner with the wax pellet thermostat operated flap. Or better yet a 1972-73 oil bath with a vacuum operated flap, the later ones with a plastic and a brass vacuum nipple instead of two plastic nipples are a bit better. Or if you want paper go with a 1973 or later paper element air cleaner for carbureted engines (1974 was the last year for carbs on Bugs in the US.) Dont use an air cleaner off of a fuel injected engine, they don't have the preheat function.
PS, some guys put on aftermarket air cleaners thinking that the cooler air will increase performance and maybe even fuel economy. But you need heat for better fuel economy. And the 1972 and later vacuum operated air cleaners shut off heated air under acceleration anyway for better performance.
Example
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine?
Last edited by Juanito84 on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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volksnhousin
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Joined: July 18, 2006
Posts: 326
Location: Ellerslie, GA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Original is best but aftermarket will work.
If you go aftermarket make sure you get one with a fitting for the vent hose that comes from the oil fill. If you don’t get one with a fitting you will have to put a goofy little filter on the vent hose port on the oil fill and they are a pain to deal with in my opinion… Some people don’t mind them but they bother me. On top of that by the time you buy the two filters you will probably be at around the price of an original air filter/cleaner so there is no price advantage when you are all said and done if you get one without a fitting.
To sum things up, get either: aftermarket with fitting or an original.
I have an aftermarket one sort of like this on my '65 baja bug that has a 1600 engine... You can see the fitting for the vent hose.
http://www.socalautoparts.com/product_info.php/aft...op-p-15295
It is not the best quality but it works. I got mine used with a used carb setup I bought awhile ago.
Andy |
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gt1953
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Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Doo your engine a huge favor and use the stock oil bath air cleaner. It has numerous benefits. One is a velocity stack.
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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burdpete
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 544
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
I would recommend a stock air cleaner. Either find another one or find the parts you are missing.
The reason I recommend an original air cleaner is that when hooked up correctly, they heat incoming air. This in turn evaporates more fuel and increases fuel mileage. The heat also detures carb icing. They also provide the correct suction for the crankcase ventilation system. Lots of guys who put on aftermarket air cleaners find that crankcase fumes now spray out a fine oil mist inside the engine compartment.
With a 34 PICT you would want a either a 1971 oil bath aircleaner with the wax pellet thermostat operated flap. Or better yet a 1972-73 oil bath with a vacuum operated flap, the later ones with a plastic and a brass vacuum nipple instead of two brass nipples are a bit better. Or if you want paper go with a 1973 or later paper element air cleaner for carbureted engines (1974 was the last year for carbs on Bugs in the US.) Dont use an air cleaner off of a fuel injected engine, they don't have the preheat function.
PS, some guys put on aftermarket air cleaners thinking that the cooler air will increase performance and maybe even fuel economy. But you need heat for better fuel economy. And the 1972 and later vacuum operated air cleaners shut off heated air under acceleration anyway for better performance.
Example |
Warm air is for warm up and deicing. Cold air is for performance and fuel economy that's why they sell fresh air setups for most cars and trucks. To bring in fresh cooler air rather than using the preheated air found in the engine compartment.
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| burdpete wrote: |
| Warm air is for warm up and deicing. Cold air is for performance and fuel economy that's why they sell fresh air setups for most cars and trucks. To bring in fresh cooler air rather than using the preheated air found in the engine compartment. |
"Will increase performance and fuel mileage" is just a common sales pitch. The real reason they sell them is to make money, not because it does everything they say it does.
In reality liquid fuel cannot burn, only fuel vapors can burn. Carburetors just drizzle liquid fuel into the engine and what evaporates by the time it reaches the cylinders burns, the rest just increases your HC (unburned hydrocarbon) emissions, and of course lowers your fuel economy. (Imgine gasoline trickling out your exhaust pipes.) And what causes gasoline to evaporate? Heat!
Also the thermostatic 1971 and newer air cleaners offer another advantage in that they maintain a constant, thermostatically controlled temperature (around 100ºF) and therefore a more constant air density. This allows you to set an air fuel ratio that won't be upset by ambient temps. Without it, you go lean on cold days and rich on hot ones. Imagine rejetting for every change in ambient temperature. Guys getting +40mpg out of their Bugs can set a cruising AFR of around 16 to 17:1 and not have it drop down to 19:1 or more and missfire when winter comes along when using a thermostatic heated air cleaner.
Cool air does improve performance though. Cold air is denser and therefore has more oxygen, and all gasoline engines run rich, at least 13:1, at full throttle anyway, meaning that there is extra fuel available while flooring it. But you don't need a fresh air air cleaner to get cold air while flooring. All vacuum opperated air cleaners shut off hot air whenever you floor it. So with them you get the best of both worlds: efficient heated air while crusing and cool air while accelerating. (And yes, on Chevys and Fords you get more performance by hooking up a fresh air intake to the inlet of the thermostatically controlled air cleaner so it's not pulling in engine compartment air when you floor it. But AC VWs already pull cool air into the top engine compartment.)
If you do some research you will see that a heated intake is quite essential for better fuel economy. Even fuel injected cars will see a boost in fuel economy with a heated intake. It's one of the three most important fuel mileage increasers on any particular engine (lean cruising, well designed vacuum advance and heated intake) and can get you that +40mpg in a Bug.
The only time cold air will "improove" fuel mileage is if you are running terribly rich anyway. The cold air is more dense and therefore increases the AFR. But it's much better to set the air temp to a constant 100º F and then lean back the pilot jet to a nice lean cruising AFR while maintaining a rich AFR while accelerating with your main jet.
I'd like to see these salesmen show some actual data. I went from lower 30's to over 50mpg out of a 1.6L engine in a Mazda with just a few changes, and also over 60mpg in my 1.6L Golf Diesel. I'm shooting for at least 40mpg in the Bug. I've got just over 30mpg in the past, and that was without a heated air cleaner, without vacuum advance and without fine tuning the AFR! I wouldn't be surprized if I get over 50mpg when I'm done. But right now I'm in the process of overhauling the whole engine, and I will be posting the results.
Check out this link:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=287062
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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burdpete
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 544
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I cant speak to fuel economy but I do know that cooler air produces more power. And if the air is to cold you will have carb icing on a VW single carb.
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not trying to be hard on you.  It's just that I love how vacuum opperated air cleaners both heat the air while cruising and shut off heated air at full throttle for increased performance. Just be careful when you see an add saying that their product increases performance, longevity and fuel mileage. Most of the time it probably doesn't do any of the above.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| burdpete wrote: |
| I guess I cant speak to fuel economy but I do know that cooler air produces more power. And if the air is to cold you will have carb icing on a VW single carb. |
Easy fix, get dual carbs
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Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
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'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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So now I have a really good reason to enjoy the fact that I have a working thermostatically-controlled air cleaner.
Of course, I got the last OEM thermostat for the stock plastic-paper-element air cleaner, so now I'm just bubbling over with superiorty .
Tim |
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burdpete
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 544
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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For performance cool air is denser. Same performance difference as an elevation change. Cars perform better at sea level.
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Joel
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Joined: September 04, 2006
Posts: 11099
Location: NSW Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Unless you live in Antarctica the flap only stays open for warm air for 5-10 mins max then its sucking in engine bay air exactly like an aftermarket one.
In snowy conditions the vac operated ones may mix cold and hot but it wont stay on straight warm air intake for long, the temp coming off the head up the stove pipe gets pretty warm quickly.
The late plastic ones have a little marker so you can tell what angle the flap is on, even in the middle of winter mine only stayed on warm for a few mins,
The specs on the late vac I'm pretty sure is back to cold air at 20-21c inside the air filter.
It doesnt take long sucking up hot air off the head to get that warm in there.
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Aussiebug
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Joined: June 03, 2002
Posts: 2162
Location: Adelaide Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| burdpete wrote: |
| I guess I cant speak to fuel economy but I do know that cooler air produces more power. And if the air is to cold you will have carb icing on a VW single carb. |
Juanito has a couple of very good posts here.
You have to think a little different with the bug engine.
1. Unlike a water cooled car, the engine is not bathed in hot air coming in through the radiator - it's bathed in fresh cool air pulled in through the vents under the window (and engine lid where fitted) by the cooling fan. So "cool" is what the bug engine sees when the air inlet warmer systems is not operating (or when it IS operating but you floor it - the weighted flap in the stock air cleaner inlet flips open under high air flow, for cold air inlet).
2. Icing. The heads see some heat first, so the warm air inlet from the air cleaner comes up from next to the right head (later models - early models have it from the left head). But as the engine temp increases and the warm air inlet switches to cold, you still have the heat riser under the carb supplying exhaust heat to the manifold. This is there to prevent the fuel dropping out of suspension along that long induction manifold - THAT results in uneven mixtures into the cylinders and poor economy. So the engine will always see pre-warmed air, unless you have twin carbs which feed straight into the head ports.
Most water cooled carburetted cars have some form of heating in the manifold too - either via hot water from the head(s) so the inlet manifold gets warmed even before the radiator sees any water flow; or from a close coupling of the inlet and exhaust manifolds (hot spot under the carb - this is used on many older straight 6 and straight 4 engines), which once again, gets heat into the inlet manifold under the carb as soon as it possibly can.
So yes - cold air is more dense and can produce more power because it can combust with extra fuel, but most engines (single carbs) have some form of manifold heating system, so it's a moot point.
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Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com |
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| burdpete wrote: |
Warm air is for warm up and deicing. Cold air is for performance and fuel economy that's why they sell fresh air setups for most cars and trucks. To bring in fresh cooler air rather than using the preheated air found in the engine compartment. |
Cars and trucks today are FUEL INJECTED and do benefit some from getting colder, denser air into the cylinders. Our VWs are carbureted and though they could benefit from colder air in the combustion chamber, having cold air in the long intake runners causes the fuel to fall out of suspension on the way to the cylinders.
If you can figure out a way to keep the air cool and the fuel atomized in that colder air, you could make a fortune.  Oh wait, that's basicly what fuel injection does ... ... inject fuel into the cold air at the last possible moment so it doesn't have time to fall out of suspension.
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'69 Dune Buggy
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Joel wrote: |
The specs on the late vac I'm pretty sure is back to cold air at 20-21c inside the air filter.
It doesnt take long sucking up hot air off the head to get that warm in there. |
The spec is 27.5º to 32.5º C (81.5º to 90.5º F) for the 1971 wax pellet models and. Vacuum ones are a bit higher and can keep it over 40º C (104º). Plus they don't just close at that temp, rather they maintain that temp.
Like I said, it's much easier to keep a good AFR if your intake temp doesn't change. Most places don't usually get much hotter than 40º C (104º F) so keeping the intake that hot allows you to have the same AFR regaurdless if it's 40º, 0º or -40º outside.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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burdpete
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 544
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
| burdpete wrote: |
Warm air is for warm up and deicing. Cold air is for performance and fuel economy that's why they sell fresh air setups for most cars and trucks. To bring in fresh cooler air rather than using the preheated air found in the engine compartment. |
Cars and trucks today are FUEL INJECTED and do benefit some from getting colder, denser air into the cylinders. Our VWs are carbureted and though they could benefit from colder air in the combustion chamber, having cold air in the long intake runners causes the fuel to fall out of suspension on the way to the cylinders.
If you can figure out a way to keep the air cool and the fuel atomized in that colder air, you could make a fortune. Oh wait, that's basicly what fuel injection does ... ... inject fuel into the cold air at the last possible moment so it doesn't have time to fall out of suspension. |
I think it has already been mentioned, Dual carbs. And every engine benefits from denser air. Ask a drag racer how much slower they run at Bandamier (Denver) than they run at Pomona (CA)
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Joel
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Joined: September 04, 2006
Posts: 11099
Location: NSW Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
The spec is 27.5º to 32.5º C (81.5º to 90.5º F) for the 1971 wax pellet models and. Vacuum ones are a bit higher and can keep it over 40º C (104º). Plus they don't just close at that temp, rather they maintain that temp.
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Straight from the horses mouth.
| Quote: |
...............Just came over the original German VW repair manual. Just for the record:
Temperatüschalter prüfen.
Mit dem Mund das Ventil durchblasen:
- Über +29 C muss es geschlossen sein
- Unter +21 C muss es geöffnet sein
Or in English that means something like:
Testing the temperature valve:
With the mouth, blow through the valve:
- Over +29 Celsius ( +84 F) it shall be closed
- Under +21 Celsius (+70 F) it shall be open
In other words, it should open/close around 25 Celsius/77 Fahrenheit. |
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Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Joel wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
The spec is 27.5º to 32.5º C (81.5º to 90.5º F) for the 1971 wax pellet models and. Vacuum ones are a bit higher and can keep it over 40º C (104º). Plus they don't just close at that temp, rather they maintain that temp.
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Straight from the horses mouth.
| Quote: |
...............Just came over the original German VW repair manual. Just for the record:
Temperatüschalter prüfen.
Mit dem Mund das Ventil durchblasen:
- Über +29 C muss es geschlossen sein
- Unter +21 C muss es geöffnet sein
Or in English that means something like:
Testing the temperature valve:
With the mouth, blow through the valve:
- Over +29 Celsius ( +84 F) it shall be closed
- Under +21 Celsius (+70 F) it shall be open
In other words, it should open/close around 25 Celsius/77 Fahrenheit. |
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Interesting. I wonder which years. My 1971 number comes from the Bently manual. Any how regulated air at around 25º C (77º F) is much better for some of us than nothing. Right now 25º C (77º F) is about our peak day temperature around hear on hot days. It is down around 7º C (45º F) in the mornings. Leaves are already turning yellow. Pretty soon we'll be seeing frost.
I got my other numbers from a Haynes manual. And from some info on similar years Fords and Chevys.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Boble
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Joined: November 13, 2005
Posts: 744
Location: Oslo, Norway
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| Joel wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
The spec is 27.5º to 32.5º C (81.5º to 90.5º F) for the 1971 wax pellet models and. Vacuum ones are a bit higher and can keep it over 40º C (104º). Plus they don't just close at that temp, rather they maintain that temp.
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Straight from the horses mouth.
| Quote: |
...............Just came over the original German VW repair manual. Just for the record:
Temperatüschalter prüfen.
Mit dem Mund das Ventil durchblasen:
- Über +29 C muss es geschlossen sein
- Unter +21 C muss es geöffnet sein
Or in English that means something like:
Testing the temperature valve:
With the mouth, blow through the valve:
- Over +29 Celsius ( +84 F) it shall be closed
- Under +21 Celsius (+70 F) it shall be open
In other words, it should open/close around 25 Celsius/77 Fahrenheit. |
|
Interesting. I wonder which years. My 1971 number comes from the Bently manual. Any how regulated air at around 25º C (77º F) is much better for some of us than nothing. Right now 25º C (77º F) is about our peak day temperature around hear on hot days. It is down around 7º C (45º F) in the mornings. Leaves are already turning yellow. Pretty soon we'll be seeing frost.
I got my other numbers from a Haynes manual. And from some info on similar years Fords and Chevys. |
The quote above is from this horse: VW Technisches Merkblatt Nr. 3, August 1975.
That means that the 21-29 C (70-84 F) limits are about "Thermostatic Valve" (vacuum type) that came after 1972 - NOT the older wax type. |
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