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FastyOrange
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Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 111
Location: Greenville, SC
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 Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: Orange '72 FI Fastback |
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Hey guys, I'm the proud owner of a 1972 FI Fastback that has been a pretty good running car over the two years that I've had it. At one point it was my daily driver but a company vehicle put an end to that a couple of months ago. The car has been running pretty great lately, but the last few days have me scratching my head. The car has starting running a bit rough in that it is jerking under load (though not under a full load). This jerking feeling is very rapid and when the car is jerking there is a definite lack of power. The car idles perfectly and feels fine when you put your foot down, it's everything in between that isn't feeling right.
I'm an avid reader of Tram's FI thread, so I went to work adjusting valves, setting dwell, setting the timing, confirming that fuel pressure is at 28 psi, confirmed that my injectors are firing, adjusted the throttle position sensor, made sure there were no vacuum leaks, and even swapped in new spark plugs to be sure there wasn't an issue there. After all of that, the problem is still present. I'm not sure where to go from here.
The car is for the most part a stock FI '72 with a manual transmission. I replaced the generator with an alternator, installed a Ford Ranger fuel pump, and I'm running a distributor from a 1970 car (part no. 311 905 205 A-B). I do have a few correct part number distributors but haven't had any luck getting the car to run correctly with them installed. Since the '70 distributor has worked well I put correcting that on the back burner. The wiring harness is new and checks out as problem free.
If anyone can offer any advice or point me in the right direction I would certainly appreciate it. I do have a Bentley on hand to refer to.
Thanks in advance.
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70 FI Fastback (Parts Car) |
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Donnie strickland
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FastyOrange
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Joined: November 15, 2012
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Location: Greenville, SC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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I did adjust the TVS and even tried another unit that tested good...no change. That was actually the first thing I suspected based on how many people have posted about similar issues that were resolved by adjusting the TVS.
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have another set of trigger contacts you could install in the 70 distributor that's in the car now?
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
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Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Does your MPS hold a vacuum well, and do the resistances check out? |
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FastyOrange
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Joined: November 15, 2012
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Location: Greenville, SC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Donnie-
I do have other sets of trigger points that I can swap in. Since I was stumped I pulled some bits off of the motor to address a leaky pushrod tube seal, so it will be a little while before I can do a test run with the trigger points swapped. But, I will try that and report back with the results.
KTPhil-
I did check out the MPS a minute ago...the suck test passed with flying colors and the resistance check was within a few points of the numbers on the troubleshooting checklists I have (~90 ohm on outside contacts and ~350 ohm on inside contacts). I got 94.6 ohms on the outside pair of contacts and 348 ohms on the inside pair. I think these numbers indicate that everything is fine but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks for helping me think through this guys!
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34022
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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I am leaning towards ignition as a first path before digging deeper into the FI...
Have you checked that you are getting proper ignition advance?
Related: when you swapped distributors, did you swap vacuum cans as well?
Can you get it to stumble when revving the car in neutral? If so, put a strobe timing light on it and see if it's jumpy.
Try running the car in the dark and look for any sparks jumping to ground from any of the high tension leads.
These are easy checks and will go far to eliminate spark as an issue. |
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FastyOrange
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Joined: November 15, 2012
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Location: Greenville, SC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Phil-
I'll check these things ASAP. I'm about to torque the driver's side cylinder head back down after replacing a pushrod tube seal. Then it'll be on to re-installing tins, runners injectors, etc on that side of the motor. Once that's done I'll run through your list. I also think that this might be ignition related as the FI parts seem to all be checking out.
When I tried swapping out distributors a while back (to get the correct one in) I did the swap with the single vac can and with the dual vac can. The correct distributor did not want to do much of anything with the dual vac can, but would run ok with the single vac can...just not as well as the 70 distributor.
My car is at my shop a few miles down the road from my house, and I'm going to have to head home after I torque this head down. So, I'll look into you suggestions over the next few days.
Thanks again to you and Donnie for the help this afternoon. Oh, and your orange fastback is awesome. I think it has convinced me to keep mine orange when the time comes to do body and paint work.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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KTPhil is probably spot on. It sounds advance or breaker plate related.
Also...this same symptom comes from crap in the fuel tank around the intake.
Also....this same symptom comes from crappy grounds.
Lastly...and I will draw a lot of fire for this....but I stand by it.....quit swapping parts as a test method. The stock d-jet connectors were so lame that in many cases with 45 year old connections, unlesz you are very diligent....just pulling the plug to diagnostically check a part....can cause running issues. Also.....if you can check the part you are swapping in f9r proper reistance, continuity and function ( you did check didnt you?)......you can just as easily check the part you were worried about. Ray |
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Tram
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ray thinks that D-Jet connectors are lame. I will let him revel in this fallacy. 
My suggestion is ignition first as well- including pulling and "reading" the spark plugs. If they all look pretty much the same, indicating that the issue isn't based in one particular cylinder or one side of the engine, and your basic settings are confirmed good, and the MPS checks out, my first suspect would be a faulty, dirty, or maladjusted throttle switch.
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
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Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I will draw a lot of fire for this....but I stand by it.....quit swapping parts as a test method. |
Ray, you're preaching to the choir here, but trigger points are so easy to change and he's already got another set, so it will only take a few minutes to rule that out.
That's listed as a potential cause in the fuel injection manual, and it's something he hasn't already checked.
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FastyOrange
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 111
Location: Greenville, SC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
KTPhil is probably spot on. It sounds advance or breaker plate related.
Also...this same symptom comes from crap in the fuel tank around the intake.
Also....this same symptom comes from crappy grounds.
Lastly...and I will draw a lot of fire for this....but I stand by it.....quit swapping parts as a test method. The stock d-jet connectors were so lame that in many cases with 45 year old connections, unlesz you are very diligent....just pulling the plug to diagnostically check a part....can cause running issues. Also.....if you can check the part you are swapping in f9r proper reistance, continuity and function ( you did check didnt you?)......you can just as easily check the part you were worried about. Ray |
Understood on all points. I'll check advance once everything is back together, the fuel tank will be easy to take a look at tonight, grounds should be fine but I'll clean them to be sure. The harness and connectors are new-ish (about a year to year-and-a-half old). I was having some random off and on running issues and after reading at great length on here decided that my harness was at fault. The new harness made those off and on issues disappear. The injector connectors are all L-Jet style connectors (sorry Tram) as I had a replacement D-Jet connector lose contact after one unplug/re-plug cycle...very irritating. The other connectors are all D-Jet style, but they are 100% new and I confirmed that they are staying snug and making contact.
| Tram wrote: |
| My suggestion is ignition first as well- including pulling and "reading" the spark plugs. If they all look pretty much the same, indicating that the issue isn't based in one particular cylinder or one side of the engine, and your basic settings are confirmed good, and the MPS checks out, my first suspect would be a faulty, dirty, or maladjusted throttle switch. |
Will post about spark plugs shortly. Seems like the plugs I swapped out were all about the same, but I will confirm this when I get back to my shop. The MPS held vacuum when I did the suck test and gave me resistances within a few points of the values I have listed (94.6 on the outside contacts, 348 on the inside contacts) so I believe it to be fine but would love for someone to confirm that for me. I did check the TVS initially and found that adjustment per Bentley did not help. I did also clean the TVS and try again with no change. I will give this another shot but so far it doesn't look like the culprit. Is there another way to confirm its function other than the 10 clicks? I don't have my Bentley with me at the moment, but I want to be sure I haven't missed anything on the TVS.
| Donnnie strickland wrote: |
Ray, you're preaching to the choir here, but trigger points are so easy to change and he's already got another set, so it will only take a few minutes to rule that out.
That's listed as a potential cause in the fuel injection manual, and it's something he hasn't already checked. |
I'll check my trigger contacts and go ahead and clean them since the distributor is already out.
Thanks for the help everyone!
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70 FI Fastback (Parts Car) |
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FastyOrange
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Joined: November 15, 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Ok, so I had to work later than usual last night and didn't have time for any re-assembly but I did run by the shop and for a couple of quick checks. I figured I could at least read the old plugs and check the gas tank. Well, I couldn't find the old plugs so I'll have to read the new ones after a little driving, but I did pop the sender out of the tank and take a look:
The dark blob below the filter sock is not loose material. That is actually stuck to the bottom of the tank. I had to scrape it forcefully with a long screwdriver to dislodge any of it. So the question is, are those other bits enough to get sucked up and clog the sock?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
Ray thinks that D-Jet connectors are lame. I will let him revel in this fallacy.
My suggestion is ignition first as well- including pulling and "reading" the spark plugs. If they all look pretty much the same, indicating that the issue isn't based in one particular cylinder or one side of the engine, and your basic settings are confirmed good, and the MPS checks out, my first suspect would be a faulty, dirty, or maladjusted throttle switch. |
Dont worry. They set themseleves straight in 1972 with their published testing results at AMP (the manufacturers of the connector system). They found failures due to vibration and heat cycling, lack of any performance plating and lack of any spring characteristics in the metals of the D-jet design....... causing connectivity, failure in as little as 25 cycles of plugging and unplugging.
Do your homework......for the 100th time.....the info is buried on Tyco/AMP's website. This is why they NEVER the D-jet terminal system on any other fuel injection system worldwide.
Since d-jet....not one single car of any stature has had factory EFI built with non-cantilevered terminal systems.
The original harness connectors work fine with new.....but will not stay that way. Ray |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| FastyOrange wrote: |
Ok, so I had to work later than usual last night and didn't have time for any re-assembly but I did run by the shop and for a couple of quick checks. I figured I could at least read the old plugs and check the gas tank. Well, I couldn't find the old plugs so I'll have to read the new ones after a little driving, but I did pop the sender out of the tank and take a look:
The dark blob below the filter sock is not loose material. That is actually stuck to the bottom of the tank. I had to scrape it forcefully with a long screwdriver to dislodge any of it. So the question is, are those other bits enough to get sucked up and clog the sock? |
Yes, it might be a good time to have the tank cleaned out. Not sure what that stuff is though, as it almost looks like tar or something. 
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Mike Fisher
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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You can filter all the loose stuff out of the tank by straining your gas through cotton cloth. Best to have the tank loose so you can slosh the gas around in it. Rinse and repeat 2-3 times.
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Tram
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
Ray thinks that D-Jet connectors are lame. I will let him revel in this fallacy.
My suggestion is ignition first as well- including pulling and "reading" the spark plugs. If they all look pretty much the same, indicating that the issue isn't based in one particular cylinder or one side of the engine, and your basic settings are confirmed good, and the MPS checks out, my first suspect would be a faulty, dirty, or maladjusted throttle switch. |
Dont worry. They set themseleves straight in 1972 with their published testing results at AMP (the manufacturers of the connector system). They found failures due to vibration and heat cycling, lack of any performance plating and lack of any spring characteristics in the metals of the D-jet design....... causing connectivity, failure in as little as 25 cycles of plugging and unplugging.
Do your homework......for the 100th time.....the info is buried on Tyco/AMP's website. This is why they NEVER the D-jet terminal system on any other fuel injection system worldwide.
Since d-jet....not one single car of any stature has had factory EFI built with non-cantilevered terminal systems.
The original harness connectors work fine with new.....but will not stay that way. Ray |
Who plugs/ unplugs ANY FI connector 25 times???
For as "bad" and "lame" as these are, there sure are enough of them functioning 46 years later!!!
Further- the connector was designed to work with a functioning BOOT to hold it on the injector. YES, the later connectors are an improved design. NO that doesn't mean you need to go chop off all your connectors and replace them with later ones that will never fit your D-Jet injectors correctly anyways.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
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FastyOrange
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 111
Location: Greenville, SC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for confirming what I feared Bob. I'll put cleaning the tank on the list of items to tackle this weekend.
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| You can filter all the loose stuff out of the tank by straining your gas through cotton cloth. Best to have the tank loose so you can slosh the gas around in it. Rinse and repeat 2-3 times. |
And thank you Mike...I was on the verge of asking what the right cleaning method is when I saw your post!
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70 FI Fastback (Parts Car) |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
Ray thinks that D-Jet connectors are lame. I will let him revel in this fallacy.
My suggestion is ignition first as well- including pulling and "reading" the spark plugs. If they all look pretty much the same, indicating that the issue isn't based in one particular cylinder or one side of the engine, and your basic settings are confirmed good, and the MPS checks out, my first suspect would be a faulty, dirty, or maladjusted throttle switch. |
Dont worry. They set themseleves straight in 1972 with their published testing results at AMP (the manufacturers of the connector system). They found failures due to vibration and heat cycling, lack of any performance plating and lack of any spring characteristics in the metals of the D-jet design....... causing connectivity, failure in as little as 25 cycles of plugging and unplugging.
Do your homework......for the 100th time.....the info is buried on Tyco/AMP's website. This is why they NEVER the D-jet terminal system on any other fuel injection system worldwide.
Since d-jet....not one single car of any stature has had factory EFI built with non-cantilevered terminal systems.
The original harness connectors work fine with new.....but will not stay that way. Ray |
Who plugs/ unplugs ANY FI connector 25 times???
For as "bad" and "lame" as these are, there sure are enough of them functioning 46 years later!!!
Further- the connector was designed to work with a functioning BOOT to hold it on the injector. YES, the later connectors are an improved design. NO that doesn't mean you need to go chop off all your connectors and replace them with later ones that will never fit your D-Jet injectors correctly anyways. |
Actually....they made the connectors fail with as little as 25 plugging/unplugging cycles...irrespective of heat and vibration. They fail much quicker with heat and vibration.
and...the point of failure listed was not simply no connection....the point of failure is any connection that produces a resistance other higher than specified.....which is common.
The later ones are not just improved. The dual cantilever L-jet terminal (originally L-jet) are now 7 generations of development and some 30,000 part #'s more advanced.....and that is mainly in variations, materials and plating. The key that makes them better has not advanced one bit....that being that they have internal, built in spring pressure.
For the technical record....the boot has nothing whatsoever to do with connectivity. Its simply a water vapor seal that keeps corrosion down (good for long term connectivity....but not immediate quality of connectivity)
......and the plastic plug has "0" to do with connectivity.,,,,,and is in fact why so many D-jet system owners piddle around for weeks troubleshooting a system with a total of 23 wires and four sensors 
Because they tug on the connector...and assume just because it "feels" tight....it MUST have good connections inside....let me give you another eye roll for that one
Thats the MAIN problem they found with the plug and connector system with D-jet.
The simple rolled edge female connectors....hey....just like the ones in your fuse block and on your coil right?...only smaller!....get loose...because copper is NOT a spring material...and you occasionally have to squeeze them with pliers to get them to stay on the terminal...right?...fucking DUH!
D-jet female terminals are identical. They get loose just from plugging them in even faster than larger terminals of the same design...because they have less metal to deform.
The squirrely plug design...some fit tight...some fit loose....leads the unknowing owner to believe the terminals inside are tight when they are not. thats a high resistance connection. D-jet is a 100% resistance based system. The plug system sucks for fuel injection.
Did I say anywhere in my post for anyone to clip off their plugs......point that out for me will ya?
(even though its dead simple to do so and use L-jet plugs for all but the TVS...and you have new boots with it)
....most could get away with simply using new stock end terminals once every few years...or the occasional new harness once every eon (instead of patching old crap with high resistance)
As for preaching to the choir about swapping parts...which is stupid....especially since virtually no one on these forums seems to know how to pre-test trigger points for resistance (do you know the resistance tolerance for D-jet trigger points?) ....or even check them for proper contact position (there is a jig for that by the way in case you dont know)..........If you dont know how to test trigger points (which Im doubting because people are repeatedly surprised when I tell them)....regardless of harness/connector issues......it would be stupid to swap in an unknown part and expect a known result....dont you think?
The fact is I shouldn't be preaching to the choir. That book....was written from factory perfect point of view over 40 years ago....without reference to age and wear....or even historically how D-jet actually ran ....as compared to how it was designed to be run.
If you continue to think it all goes by the book with D-jet and that the books are anywhere near complete....have fun with that. Ray |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
Ray thinks that D-Jet connectors are lame. I will let him revel in this fallacy.
My suggestion is ignition first as well- including pulling and "reading" the spark plugs. If they all look pretty much the same, indicating that the issue isn't based in one particular cylinder or one side of the engine, and your basic settings are confirmed good, and the MPS checks out, my first suspect would be a faulty, dirty, or maladjusted throttle switch. |
Dont worry. They set themseleves straight in 1972 with their published testing results at AMP (the manufacturers of the connector system). They found failures due to vibration and heat cycling, lack of any performance plating and lack of any spring characteristics in the metals of the D-jet design....... causing connectivity, failure in as little as 25 cycles of plugging and unplugging.
Do your homework......for the 100th time.....the info is buried on Tyco/AMP's website. This is why they NEVER the D-jet terminal system on any other fuel injection system worldwide.
Since d-jet....not one single car of any stature has had factory EFI built with non-cantilevered terminal systems.
The original harness connectors work fine with new.....but will not stay that way. Ray |
Who plugs/ unplugs ANY FI connector 25 times???
For as "bad" and "lame" as these are, there sure are enough of them functioning 46 years later!!!
Further- the connector was designed to work with a functioning BOOT to hold it on the injector. YES, the later connectors are an improved design. NO that doesn't mean you need to go chop off all your connectors and replace them with later ones that will never fit your D-Jet injectors correctly anyways. |
Actually....they made the connectors fail with as little as 25 plugging/unplugging cycles...irrespective of heat and vibration. They fail much quicker with heat and vibration.
and...the point of failure listed was not simply no connection....the point of failure is any connection that produces a resistance other higher than specified.....which is common.
The later ones are not just improved. The dual cantilever L-jet terminal (originally L-jet) are now 7 generations of development and some 30,000 part #'s more advanced.....and that is mainly in variations, materials and plating. The key that makes them better has not advanced one bit....that being that they have internal, built in spring pressure.
For the technical record....the boot has nothing whatsoever to do with connectivity. Its simply a water vapor seal that keeps corrosion down (good for long term connectivity....but not immediate quality of connectivity)
......and the plastic plug has "0" to do with connectivity.,,,,,and is in fact why so many D-jet system owners piddle around for weeks troubleshooting a system with a total of 23 wires and four sensors
Because they tug on the connector...and assume just because it "feels" tight....it MUST have good connections inside....let me give you another eye roll for that one
Thats the MAIN problem they found with the plug and connector system with D-jet.
The simple rolled edge female connectors....hey....just like the ones in your fuse block and on your coil right?...only smaller!....get loose...because copper is NOT a spring material...and you occasionally have to squeeze them with pliers to get them to stay on the terminal...right?...fucking DUH!
D-jet female terminals are identical. They get loose just from plugging them in even faster than larger terminals of the same design...because they have less metal to deform.
The squirrely plug design...some fit tight...some fit loose....leads the unknowing owner to believe the terminals inside are tight when they are not. thats a high resistance connection. D-jet is a 100% resistance based system. The plug system sucks for fuel injection.
Did I say anywhere in my post for anyone to clip off their plugs......point that out for me will ya?
(even though its dead simple to do so and use L-jet plugs for all but the TVS...and you have new boots with it)
....most could get away with simply using new stock end terminals once every few years...or the occasional new harness once every eon (instead of patching old crap with high resistance)
As for preaching to the choir about swapping parts...which is stupid....especially since virtually no one on these forums seems to know how to pre-test trigger points for resistance (do you know the resistance tolerance for D-jet trigger points?) ....or even check them for proper contact position (there is a jig for that by the way in case you dont know)..........If you dont know how to test trigger points (which Im doubting because people are repeatedly surprised when I tell them)....regardless of harness/connector issues......it would be stupid to swap in an unknown part and expect a known result....dont you think?
The fact is I shouldn't be preaching to the choir. That book....was written from factory perfect point of view over 40 years ago....without reference to age and wear....or even historically how D-jet actually ran ....as compared to how it was designed to be run.
If you continue to think it all goes by the book with D-jet and that the books are anywhere near complete....have fun with that. Ray |
There's always going to be a rare exception, but for the most part, I've been doing just that for 39 years so far with great results.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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