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MetricMuscle
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Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:51 am Post subject: MetricMuscle's Bajabaru Build |
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....and so it begins.
This Baja will be used both on the road and off. Off road will be woods of the tight, hilly, rocky, rooted, rutted variety. No actual rock crawling, just some mildly technical trails we have around here. My RZR friends negotiate this stuff easily so this will be my attempt to build a Baja with similar strengths and fewer inconveniences.
I am recently the proud owner of a '73 already-Baja'd-in-need-of-some-lovin' Bug as well as a '97 Subaru Legacy.
The plan is to use the engine and automatic transaxle out of the Subaru and mount it mid-engine in the Baja. This may require cutting and/or removing the rear torsion beam so some sort of A-arm or multi-link arrangement will be needed in the rear.
The front will be King Pin with extended length trailing arms, possibly a narrowed beam to keep track width close to 60".
I have lots of questions and need your loving support and input.
I don't need mega travel or ground clearance but this and dreamy suspension is tops on my list of priorities. Is there a ratio of how high vs how much track width is a good combo?
With the Subaru engine being a flat 4, the CG should be pretty low.
The Subaru hubs use a 5 x 100 bolt pattern which isn't the most popular. What bolt pattern will give me the best variety of wheels to choose from and use?
I'll need a 15 x 7 or 8 so I can run a 30x9.50x15 All Terrain tire. I'd also like to run a wheel with positive offset to help with overall vehicle width. |
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Stuartzickefoose
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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any pics?
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:37 am Post subject: |
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5x120 I think, late bay window and vanagon have a pretty wide variety. And whatever the chevy pattern is
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'68 Baja Truck
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MetricMuscle
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
| any pics? |
Not yet, she ugly right now. I'll take some tomorrow.
I have recently discovered that 5 x 100 bolt pattern is much more common than I previously thought. This will allow me to stick with the Subaru spindle/uprights, hubs and axles. I'm assuming I can get a hub for an aftermarket KingPin front end in 5 x 100 but haven't really looking into it.
How does one go about choosing a good off road wheel?
I'll only need around a 6.5" wide 15" wheel to run 30x9.50x15 tires.
I was thinking a plain steel wheel would be the smart choice but not sure what the actual advantages would be compared to an aluminum one. |
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Brian
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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All depends on what look you like really. But stock vw wheels are always great.
ITP, OMF, ultra, method, american eagle and so on.
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no1clyde
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Joined: August 27, 2013
Posts: 365
Location: Elko Nv.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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MM I put a set of 30-9.5-15 BFG muds on a set of stock rims and am going to use them on my Baja Bug project.
They are cheap cuz I have them....well maybe I'm cheap LOL.
I am looking forward to watching your build. I am building a Baja Bug too and have a build thread going on over at ShopTalk Forum, Ed's Baja Bug build it you want to check it out. Mine will have a Subaru motor mated to a 091 VW trans when done.
Ed |
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winchin73blazinbaja
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Joined: June 26, 2014
Posts: 648
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| this should be a great project! i also am running some bfg mud terrains but i am using 31/10.5/r15 i would recommend some taller tires if you are running a higher power motor. if you have the power use it to get some extra ground clearance. |
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MetricMuscle
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Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Ok, here she is in all her glory.
| winchin73blazinbaja wrote: |
| this should be a great project! i also am running some bfg mud terrains but i am using 31/10.5/r15 i would recommend some taller tires if you are running a higher power motor. if you have the power use it to get some extra ground clearance. |
I was planning on running some 31x10.50x15 but when comparing the different sizes I noticed how much more some of them weigh and only 1" taller, 1/2" more ground clearance. Unsprung weight is very critical for anything driven on the street, I'm not sure how important it is off road or if it is even feasible to worry about.
I may try just a pair of 30x9.50x15 on the rear and see how they do since they are 1" narrower than a 10.50. If I feel I'll need more width then I'll put the 9.50 on the front and step up to a 10.50 in the rear although I'd like to keep the same size front and rear.
I picked up some factory steel 15" Subaru wheels from Pull-A-Part yesterday so they will be my starting point. Less than $80 for all 4 instead of over $80 for just one new aluminum wheel. Shoulda been under $40 for all 4 but the kid at the counter insisted on charging me for the bald tires on 3 of them.
I also picked up some 2001ish Honda Civic Coupe cloth seats with tracks. Very baller, passenger side tilts up and slides forward, tracks mount to floor not to the side or tunnel, narrow but still bolstered.
Look very similar to these-
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winchin73blazinbaja
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Joined: June 26, 2014
Posts: 648
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| the weight is somewhat important but at least having the weight in your tires it is not affecting you much all the suspension weight is carrying the body. if you can find a 31/9.5 go for it i would have gotten a 9.5 but could not find any in a 31/9.5 should still be a sweet project it looks pretty solid just needs a little tlc |
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:12 am Post subject: |
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OK, some one has to ask... why use that tranny? Is it just for durability?
I'm not sure you are going to get much more value for all the extra work it's going to take to redesign the entire rear suspension system.
First off, how wide is the trans at the axle outputs? If it's any wider than 11" your going to be making the rear end wider just to get stock travel. Maybe it's not that bad? But I think if it wasn't you'd be seeing a lot more people doing conversions your way.
I wanted to go with a Subaru swap before I decided to start mine, but I was turned off by the complexity and expense that's supposedly involved in just the computer system. Add that to engineering a suspension too and this is going to get expensive. Not that I'm against doing something just for the sake of doing something. Heck my "Project Someday" is an exercise in that for sure. I just hope you're in for that long haul. There's times I seriously question it myself.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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winchin73blazinbaja
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Joined: June 26, 2014
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Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| that is a great point that i have seen come up in many cases when people start talking about subi swaps. |
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MetricMuscle
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Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ORANGECRUSHer wrote: |
OK, some one has to ask... why use that tranny? Is it just for durability?
I'm not sure you are going to get much more value for all the extra work it's going to take to redesign the entire rear suspension system.
First off, how wide is the trans at the axle outputs? If it's any wider than 11" your going to be making the rear end wider just to get stock travel. Maybe it's not that bad? But I think if it wasn't you'd be seeing a lot more people doing conversions your way.
I wanted to go with a Subaru swap before I decided to start mine, but I was turned off by the complexity and expense that's supposedly involved in just the computer system. Add that to engineering a suspension too and this is going to get expensive. Not that I'm against doing something just for the sake of doing something. Heck my "Project Someday" is an exercise in that for sure. I just hope you're in for that long haul. There's times I seriously question it myself. |
Very good points and questions I have to ask myself every once in awhile to remind me how I came to this configuration. I'll try to summarize.
I currently ride a dirt bike in the many off road areas around here in Eastern Tennessee. It's hilly hardpack mostly with some rocks and roots, mostly tight woods, it's really the type of terrain I like to ride or hike in as opposed to more open or flat or sandy.
The majority of my friends have RZR and Maverick Side-by-Sides or 4-wheeler ATV's. Most of the large riding areas around here have evolved to the size of a SxS or large 4-wheeler, it's what is running thru the woods the most so the trails are worn that way. All of these friends want me to get a RZR or 4-wheeler even though they are routinely surprised how much more highly mobile a dirt bike is compared to anything with more wheels.
I don't really want a RZR. I don't have a truck to pull it to where we ride. They are really expensive for what they are. I'd rather have a street legal and street/interstate capable all terrain vehicle that is compact and close to RZR or Maverick size track and wheelbase. Something I can drive all over, to the woods or to the many other off road locations around here. Even to work when it snows.
One day, out in da woods, I was waiting for the convoy of my friends to catch up and a yellow rail buggy passes by where I am. I'm surprised to see him out here, this is pretty deep into Royal Blue and not easy access either direction. We wave at each other. He turns and drives down this pretty steep trail to a small camping area and then climbs effortlessly up the other trail out. Doesn't spin, just motors right up the trail just like the RZRs or Maverick does. He is clearly just 2WD so I'm impressed by how easily this rail can climb.
Turns out the seasoned RZR drivers rarely use 4WD except to keep from sliding sideways in muddy conditions, not to help climb anything so 2WD should be plenty with the right tires and weight distribution. A RZR is around 45F/55R where as a rail buggy is closer to 30F/70R. That extreme rear bias is great for climbing stuff but makes turning kinda weird. This is why turning brakes are used in the woods I learn but they don't help on the street especially at highway speeds.
"You won't be driving a rail buggy to Royal Blue in February." my buddy informs me. True, had not thought of that, 25 degrees at 7am is not gonna be too comfy in a rail buggy on the interstate. Not to mention, most of the rails I had been finding for sale were at least $3,000 and I'd probably replace everything on it so starting from scratch would make more sense. It's also not easy to find a rail buggy with a wheel base under 95" unless it is an ol'skool built on a Bug pan model.
A co-worker mentioned to me he had a Baja Bug he had built that has been sitting in his back yard for 5 or so years. Has a title, close to the right track and wheel base, enclosed cabin, sold it to me cheap.
Why a Subaru engine and automatic transmission mounted mid engine?
An automatic will be lots easier to drive where I wanna take it. A torque converter and no clutch deal with will be wonderful. One foot on the brake and one on the gas......
The trans should not stick out the back as far as most Baja Bugs I've seen. This is important for navigating hilly woods with drop offs. Kinda crazy how far out the back some exhaust and/or rear cages extend.
135hp/140ftlbs is attainable with a bug motor but expensive and won't last as long as the OE Subaru.
I do like projects but no matter what I ended up with, there were gonna be lots of mods regardless. All of the great suspension upgrades most do to get more travel and plush ride may already be re-engineered but most require lots of modification and work so it's unavoidable.
The Subaru axles are pretty long. I'm not sure how wide the diff housing is but I think the outer CV's are more compact in the hub/upright/spindle assembly. The Legacy donor car has about a 60" track width IIRC. How long to axles need to be for say 12" of travel?
Damn, didn't wanna write a novel and I'm sure there were other factors which influenced my decision. |
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MetricMuscle
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Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| As far as the ECU goes, I have an entire well running Subaru Legacy donor vehicle. I'll use the ECU from it as well as lots of other stuff like fuse box, wiring, radiator, motor mounts and cross members, steering wheel assembly, tach/speedo cluster, HVAC system, rear spindle/hub/brakes/e-brake, axles, muffler..... Pretty much anything I can. If something isn't up to the task, I'll have to replace it down the road with new or figure out a way to use something better. |
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: |
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I had to check out how a stock transaxle looks because it's starting to sound like you really don't get what I was on about. But after having a look I have to admit I wasn't expecting the Subaru Trans to look so similar to the VW. I think inorder to get the outputs in the right place your still going to have to cut a bunch out of the frame, but what I was thinking was different.
See a Subaru should look something like this
which still looks like a big lump but it's not as wide as say something like this
which is what I was picturing.
I think to mount the trans behind the engine in a bug is going to require some thinking but shouldn't be too much different than a VW trans. It's too bad you couldn't reverse it's rotation and make a 4WD bug though. 
I think you do need to read up on the wiring aspect a bit more though. Most people need to buy special harnesses and computers need to be programmed and work-arounds made for missing sensors not to mention transmission sensors. But it's all worth it once it's done. If anything there is great support for Subaru conversions and that's why there are people out there selling $500 wiring harnesses and flashing computers for $100.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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MetricMuscle
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Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| ORANGECRUSHer wrote: |
I had to check out how a stock transaxle looks because it's starting to sound like you really don't get what I was on about. But after having a look I have to admit I wasn't expecting the Subaru Trans to look so similar to the VW. I think inorder to get the outputs in the right place your still going to have to cut a bunch out of the frame, but what I was thinking was different.
See a Subaru should look something like this
which still looks like a big lump but it's not as wide as say something like this
which is what I was picturing.
I think to mount the trans behind the engine in a bug is going to require some thinking but shouldn't be too much different than a VW trans. It's too bad you couldn't reverse it's rotation and make a 4WD bug though.
I think you do need to read up on the wiring aspect a bit more though. Most people need to buy special harnesses and computers need to be programmed and work-arounds made for missing sensors not to mention transmission sensors. But it's all worth it once it's done. If anything there is great support for Subaru conversions and that's why there are people out there selling $500 wiring harnesses and flashing computers for $100. |
The Subaru 4EAT is a big lump, I'm not sure which weighs more, it or the engine.
It's about 18" from the front of the engine to the center of the axles. Another 20" from there to the end of the transmission.
I had originally wanted to use a FWD engine/trans out of a Sentra but the transverse configurations use different length axles and one is much shorter than the other. No problem on a street car but too limiting for anything off road. Audi/VW also makes a FWD transxle like the Subaru but I have trust issues and Audi likes to get overly creative in the experimantal engineering department.
I'll have to rewire some stuff for the factory ECU to work or go with an aftermarket unit. |
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winchin73blazinbaja
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Posts: 648
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| only thing with the subaru transmissions that i have seen people using is that they need to swap the ring and pinion i believe to reverse the direction to allow for a rear mounted engine. |
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Stuartzickefoose
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Www.subarugears.com
Lots of info to be found!
Google it if that link isnt right. Its a company in australia.
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2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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MetricMuscle
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Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| winchin73blazinbaja wrote: |
| only thing with the subaru transmissions that i have seen people using is that they need to swap the ring and pinion i believe to reverse the direction to allow for a rear mounted engine. |
This will be mounted mid-engine so in the same orientation as from the factory.
It's my understanding the reverse ring and pinion is rather costly. |
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winchin73blazinbaja
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Joined: June 26, 2014
Posts: 648
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Would make sense i just realized you said mid engine i read it before just did not register |
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MetricMuscle
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Joined: August 05, 2014
Posts: 38
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I really like the BugEye Baja look but mine was done rather quick and dirty.
Where can I find BugEye parts in either fiberglass or steel or urethane etc. ?
I like the one-piece front end MarkV / Fiberglass Specialties makes but I'd really like to see one installed on a car before ordering one.
http://markvfiberglass.com/catalog/frontends/frontendK111.html
Has anyone seen this front end installed?
Seen a pic somewhere? |
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