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rrcade
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Thick oil / stock cooler Reply with quote

I hear it over and over 20/50 bypasses the stock cooler, what about BP partial synthetic 20/50? Same thing? What is the magic viscosity that doesnt?

I'll tell you I don't notice a huge change in my oil temps regardless of what wgt I run
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miniman82
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're in Wisconsin....wait till winter and see how well 20/50 treats you. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

20-50 is too thick unless it's 120F outside.
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VWCOOL
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only place you hear it 'over and over' is here, on the Samba, and from a small group of people who have convinced themselves they are experts on tribology because they have installed an oil pressure gauge.

VW - you know, the mob who designed, engineered and tested all this stuff in the first place - specs are for a thinner oil during winter... this is to help the oil start getting around the engine when it is cold. It has nothing to do with hot performance

You will have to check those specs.. I don't have them handy as I live in stinking hot Australia and run 20/50 - or thicker - year round,. It's good stuff in a relatively hot-running, wide-tolerance engine like an air-cooled VW or Harley. I - and about half a million other Aussies over the years - used it for about a quarter of a million kays with no external oil cooler or filter. Those facts really makes the experts go into mental breakdown...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
20-50 is too thick unless it's 120F outside.


So a semi 20/50 is a no no for summer use in the uk ?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWCOOL wrote:
I live in stinking hot Australia and run 20/50 - or thicker - year round,. It's good stuff in a relatively hot-running, wide-tolerance engine like an air-cooled VW or Harley. I - and about half a million other Aussies over the years - used it for about a quarter of a million kays with no external oil cooler or filter. Those facts really makes the experts go into mental breakdown...


You need to understand the federal Government here in the USA has much different regulations for motor oil then other places around the world. What we get here in the USA is different then what You get in Australia. Your advise can be dangerous for someone that lives here in the USA because our oil standards are different by law then what you use. Yes I'm talking about the same brands of Casterol, Valvoline or any other brand. What oil works for you DOES NOT work for the folks that live in the USA.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use it, a lot of guys do. I think it's foolish.

The main advantage of an oil like 20-50 is it maintains it's viscosity as it gets hotter.

So if you PLAN on overheating it's a good idea. But 20-50 kills your MPG for at least 2mpg over a 5-30, 10-30, or 0-20. I've changed from 20-50 to a lighter oil and had to reset the idle speed lower, that shows how thick and draggy the 20-50 is. In fact, if you want to run 20-50 you should know that the oil temps WILL BE HIGHER.

The VW oiling system is designed for 30 weight oil. So it will always work well with

30W
5-30
10-30
0-30

as soon as you change to something else like 10-40, 15-40, 20-50, etc, you can run into problems, specifically the engine bypasses the cooler because it makes all it's assumptions on how 30W behaves. If the pressure is high, the oil is cold, so it bypasses the cooler. It's not until the "pressure drops" that the cooler is brought into the mix. So if you are driving with 50psi of pressure, the stock oil cooler is not cooling ANYTHING, and your temps skyrocket. Only until it gets hot enough that the oil thins out some, will the cooler come in.

That is why the "normal" oil temperature of an engine with 20-50 will be a lot hotter than one with 10-30. Because as was pointed out, the engine will try to achieve a certain "operating pressure", NOT a temperature. Since it assumes that pressure/temp relationships are with 30W.

One thing a lot of guys do not grasp is efficiency based on temperature differential. If it's 120F out, the oil HAS to run hotter. It's normal. For the sake of this discussion, lets say a VW oil temp runs 130F over ambient. So if it's 70F out, the oil runs 200F. If it's 100F, oil runs 230F. If it's 115, the SAME engine is going to run 245F, giving the same driving. This is solely based on how much heat the oil can absorb, then unload at the cooler (or case, etc).

So it's unrealistic and foolish to try to get an oil system that runs 200F if it's 120F out. I mean, sure you "can" do it, but why? To me that's an oil cooling system that is far overbuilt. The hotter the oil runs, the more efficient it is at shedding the heat.

It's a balance. That's why I don't freak out if the oil temps during the heat of the Summer, are 230-240F. Yes it's hot, but it's 105F out, OF COURSE IT'S HOT.

But adding an external oil cooler because your oil temps are 220F is wasteful and unnecessary IMO.

I can't tell you how many guys I have contact me (not through Samba) with something like "I run 20-50 and my oil temps are 250/260/275, what can I do? My pressure is fine, even when hot, but the temps concern me".

3/4 of them I convince to change to a thinner oil, even if it's just for the test. "If you aren't convinced you can switch back to the 20-50 after a couple drives". They normally drop their temps a LOT, because of what we have discussed.

Drooper1965 wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
20-50 is too thick unless it's 120F outside.


So a semi 20/50 is a no no for summer use in the uk ?

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57 Rag
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always find these oil topics soooo crazy lol. There is no question Dave and John are like encyclopedias on VWs and id never doubt anything they say. That being said... Laughing i think everyone looks way tooo far into it regarding the vis issue. People will run what they think they should run depending on where you live, what daddy taught you, and most of all from previous experience. Will it hurt anything?? I personally havent heard oil viscocity screwed them up. I hang with a whole crapload of people here and all run different oil and weights for their own reasons. For example, my boy here, that people have dubbed the "Masta" has been running straight 40 since the 80's and no one can tell him otherwise. Me, I run 20-50 cause one of the top engine builders we know of told me to do so. Of course I dont live in cold weather so thats a huge factor.

Will 20-50 bypass the cooler when the engine is cold?? Sure but its cold I dont need the cooler and I actually want my engine to get upto running temp faster. Will it get less MPG? Sure but honestly I could care less or I wouldnt buy damn expensive race gas. Laughing But like I said everyone gotta make their own call cause my car is a weekend warrior and not a daily driver.

Ok have at it!! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

also, some guys will drive for 20 years running 20-50, no problems. Then one summer he buys an oil temp gauge, puts it in, and all of a sudden freaks out because it's 240F? LOL

20-50 can tolerate a lot more than 240F. Most of the guys running around in their VWs don't have ANY gauges. If it runs good they are happy. They buy gauges and start listening to other people, and then the worry sets in.
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57 Rag
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John...glad u brought it up. Sorry OP, but on the subject of gauges.... That's a problem in itself. Ive always ran them but even that mess people up. Where to mount the sender. Last night I busted out an infrared thermometer on my brothers buggy and this is what I got.

Gauge temp. - 160
Top of block (oil pressure sensor) - 140
Bottom Right side if case near PR tubes. - 210
Bottom Left side of case - 180. Only thing I can think of on that is a strong wind was coming in from the drivers side of car.

Where is the best place for an accurate reading with the IR? Not to mention temp sender.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"operating temperature".

Glad you brought that up 57'.

Operating temperature for 20-50 is a lot warmer than for 0/5/10-30. Note that the engine does not send a significant amount of oil to the stock cooler unless OIL PRESSURE IS BELOW 45 PSI.

If you have thick oil, the cooler will bypass until the oil gets hot enough that it is below 45psi. So to someone that understands this issue, they'd realize that the temperatures that this happens is very different for 0/5/10-30, 10/15-40, and 20-50. The thicker oils have to get hotter before they are routed to the cooler.

I'd think that 200F is not even warmed up for 20-50, but would be fine for 0/5/10-30. Looking over some viscosity/temp charts would show it. For example, at what temp is 20-50 the same viscosity as 10-30 at 210F? 250F?
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walmart sells Mobil 1 0w40 synthetic.

All my VW's get it. I love it. Thin enough when cold, enough viscosity when hot. And keeps cam/lifters VERY happy.

When I did a lot of back to back testing, I would average 15 degree lower oil temps going from regular oil to synthetic. Cam/lifter friction is the major source of oil heat. A better lubricant lowers that friction and temperature.

Gene Berg had the cam break in setup that would spin a cam to break it in. No other heat source, just cam/lifter friction. Oil temps were around 140 IIRC by the end of the break in process. It wasn't a running engine, mind you. Just cam/lifter friction to produce that heat. And yet he assumed the lower oil temps with synthetic was due to less heat transfer from the heads to the oil...... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a normal drive, shut the engine off and shoot the dipstick end. My gauges are probably not dead nuts, but its a relative reading for me to just monitor. You can smell excessive oil heat. Its one of those "you know it when happens" deals.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I look at it is 20W50 is thinner than straight 30 when it's cold and gives better protection if you're running hot than 30 weight. Most guys I know have run it for 30+ years I do in my street motors. I run 10W30 synthetic in my race engines.

Also oil standards are set by an international organization. The Society for Automotive Engineers or SAE. THEY set the standards for oil, governments have nothing to do with ratings systems for weights of oils. The only thing the EPA or other GO's can do is dictate what can or can't be used as addatives that will effect emmisions. 20W50 in Australia is the same weight as 20W50 in North America

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
it's unrealistic and foolish to try to get an oil system that runs 200F if it's 120F out. I mean, sure you "can" do it, but why? To me that's an oil cooling system that is far overbuilt. The hotter the oil runs, the more efficient it is at shedding the heat.


Sure it's overbuilt, but as long as there's a thermostat in there your temps should be pretty stable. Turbocharged engines make a lot more waste heat than a natural one, so it's one situation where you see 'overbuilt' oiling systems a lot. I'm sure a stock cooler wouldn't be able to keep my 1915 turbo in check when it's 100*F, therefore I have the 96-plate. To me it should be about maintaining the engine's operating envelope, because the hotter the oil is the closer to thermal breakdown it could be. This is especially so with thinner oils, but that doesn't mean they aren't good at protecting the engine- which is where the thick oil crowd goes astray.

See I've always been of the opinion that the oil getting warm/hot was a good sign, that it's removing waste heat from the engine because it's flowing through the bearings like it's supposed to. Sometimes you run into people who swear up and down that hot oil is a bad sign, like it's being "worked" too hard, so they switch to a thicker oil believing that it offers "better" protection. The reality is they are asking the stock components to do something they were never designed to do- you see this all of the time in the Bay Bus crowd: pulling long grades, driving through the desert, ect. Of course it's getting hot, you're driving in adverse conditions! To me that is no excuse for thicker oil, but it IS an argument for additional heat shedding ability in the form of an external cooler. Thus the engine is actually getting better protection because you're keeping your thin viscosity oil that flows well, and you are able to remove more heat from the taxed engine. To me that's a much better alternative than simply throwing thick oil at it, and potentially trapping that heat inside the engine where it can do damage. But the Bus people will never own up to this, because "I've never had a problem".

It's like you said John, how many people actually KNOW one exists or care to do anything about understanding and addressing the problem? Ignorance and misunderstanding abound...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With a close to stock engine I would agree thin is in. But on a 6500 rpm engine with strong valve springs and the marginal center main pound out problem I like a thicker oil with a stronger film for some #2 main cushion and better cam and lifter wear. The cooler pressure bypass problem can be solved by eliminating the plunger and going to a much better oil thermostat setup. VW used the plunger because it was cheap.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran an ACVW shop from the 60's till the late 90's. We used 20w in the winter and 30 in the summer. This was in the northeast. We had no oil related issues. Never questioned the customer just did it as normal practice.
Still do the same thing on my own 56 and 65 type 1.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oil temperatures are mostly effected by RPM. The faster you spin the engine the hotter the oil gets.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:
I live in stinking hot Australia and run 20/50 - or thicker - year round,. It's good stuff in a relatively hot-running, wide-tolerance engine like an air-cooled VW or Harley. I - and about half a million other Aussies over the years - used it for about a quarter of a million kays with no external oil cooler or filter. Those facts really makes the experts go into mental breakdown...


You need to understand the federal Government here in the USA has much different regulations for motor oil then other places around the world. What we get here in the USA is different then what You get in Australia. Your advise can be dangerous for someone that lives here in the USA because our oil standards are different by law then what you use. Yes I'm talking about the same brands of Casterol, Valvoline or any other brand. What oil works for you DOES NOT work for the folks that live in the USA.


That is a fair point, Dave, and one of the reasons I (hopefully?) never mention/recommend a brand. But unless I am mistaken, viscosity is viscosity is viscosity the world over.

Many of these oil questions relate to viscosity and engine running temps, and people freaking out about an engine running at what are normal and acceptable operating temps for an air-cooly which generally run hotter than, and require, a higher-viscosity oil than the usual coolant-cooled car

FFS there are people on here who recommend 'touching the dipstick' to determine engine temps... like, reaalllyyy...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
also, some guys will drive for 20 years running 20-50, no problems. Then one summer he buys an oil temp gauge, puts it in, and all of a sudden freaks out because it's 240F? LOL

20-50 can tolerate a lot more than 240F. Most of the guys running around in their VWs don't have ANY gauges. If it runs good they are happy. They buy gauges and start listening to other people, and then the worry sets in.


well said John, people only worry when they see numbers... if they can't see the numbers there is nothing to worry about Smile
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