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Mileage master motor
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject: Mileage master motor Reply with quote

Okay, so I'm kicking around this idea.
CB makes them and aircooled.net makes 'em.
Which would you buy from? I've followed John's VERY insightful posts and he seems to really take care of the vdubb community.
On the other hand CB has a lot of cool one-off stuff but the woman "helping" me on the phone really pissed me off. I didn't care for her attitude one bit and wound up not buying a thing from them. (I had like $400 in my cart and didn't buy a thing)
But I guess I like CB's stuff too.

So, without getting everyone into a pissing match, who would be a better shop to buy from?
Are the two motors exactly the same? I mean, the parts look VERY similar. And who is running this combination and for how long? Would I have a good long lasting motor? I know running them lean might not be good for a long term use huh?
Thanks for any help!!!
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modok
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both good places to spend money, Cb supplies some very good parts, essential stuff IMO.

I would not necessarily recommend calling CB if you need guidance on what to buy, probably they don't have enough profit margin to provide that type of in-depth service.
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Modok. Both great supporters of our hobby, but if you want customer service, you have to pay a bit more and go with aircooled.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I agree with you guys. Who is running this motor and has there been any long term results? I have a set of dual dellorto's and imagine I would be able to use them with this motor right?
Shooting for a good looking bug with practicality and good gas mileage.
A lot of people wanna build up a big ass motor but I am just the opposite-I want the gas mileage!!!ha
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gt1953
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the specs of the engine?
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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would follow John @ Aircooled.net advise. CB is a high volume wholesale/retail company and is more interested in sales then satisfaction.

CB does sell some good quality stuff but they also sell their share of junk.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here ya go:
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-type-1-mileage-engine-mpg/

It appeals to me as I want a gas sipping bug-haha!
I appreciate the help. I see John does a lot around here and, like you said, seems to really support the hobby. I especially like all if the good articles and advice he has on his site.
I wish I could buy the whole combo and do it myself but I'm too damn scared to pay for all of that and do something wrong and screw the damn thing up. Especially checking clearances and whatnot!!!

I assume I would get the 1745cc for reliability and it's only $75 more for an aluminum block so that is preferred right?
Also, he charges more for the lightweight flywheel but all that I have read says that you should go with a HEAVY flywheel to keep that inertia going once you are on the highway right? I also read on cb's website about a heavy pulley to add even more weight to the combo. Any thoughts on this??
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would get the Aluminum case if it were me. They will hold up a lot better. They weigh a little more and I have heard they run just a little hotter.

I like the weight in the flywheel. But it depends, In a bug you don't need it as much. Well I don't Know maybe it's a good Idea to have the stock flywheel in a Baja. Lightened flywheels make it a little hard to take off on a hill. I have heard the Dells will work! Hard to believe though that they would get good mpg's They sure wake up a type 1. I am building such an engine now. Have all the parts but the heads. I bought the 2231 Cam but am still a little apprehensive it is a good choice for a milage motor. My milage build is a 74mm stroke X 88mm bore for 1800cc. Not sure whether to do stock valve springs or Single HD. The stock are said to get better MPG's But If I need the power with the Single HD springs I can run 1.25 Ratio rockers a little conversion that will convert the Milage engine into a performance engine.
Looking forward to hearing more about your engine.
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bugguy076
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a stock weight flywheel and stock springs in my 1300cc mileage engine. It dosen't have the torque of a 1600cc, but gives a consistant 37mpg. The weight of the flywheel is there to help smooth the rotation of the engine. Heavy springs are only for high RPM valve and lifter control. Not needed on a mileage engine. Plus they will cost mileage. You have to decide what you want. 28 mpg is the norm for a stock engine. If you want 35mpg or more, you have to compromise.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Danwvw"]I would get the Aluminum case if it were me. They will hold up a lot better. They weigh a little more and I have heard they run just a little hotter.

I like the weight in the flywheel. But it depends, In a bug you don't need it as much. Well I don't Know maybe it's a good Idea to have the stock flywheel in a Baja. Lightened flywheels make it a little hard to take off on a hill. I have heard the Dells will work! Hard to believe though that they would get good mpg's They sure wake up a type 1. I am building such an engine now. Have all the parts but the heads. I bought the 2231 Cam but am still a little apprehensive it is a good choice for a milage motor. My milage build is a 74mm stroke X 88mm bore for 1800cc. Not sure whether to do stock valve springs or Single HD. The stock are said to get better MPG's But If I need the power with the Single HD springs I can run 1.25 Ratio rockers a little conversion that will convert the Milage engine into a performance engine.

That's interesting...I haven't read up on the ratio rockers myself. I think I'll stay with stock springs as it's not gonna be a rev'ver or running a crazy high lift cam.
Interestingly, I thought the aluminum block would run COOLER? I know it's easier the fix if damaged and thought it was a no-brainer to spend an extra $75 for an aluminum one. If anyone had any bad experiences with the shops like negative experiences I would prefer a pm instead of posting on the forum:)
Also, is there hydraulic lifters available to avoid or prolong adjusting the valves? I would imagine if they are available they are egg-spen-sive!!!!! Haha
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GTV
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aluminium cases are more dense than the factory mag case, that's why they run hotter.

99% of people who don't advise a light flywheel have never driven one.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 73 standard I have has the Hot VW's 1745cc mileage motor. 76mm stroke 85.5 pistons, stock valve heads ported and polished. Dual solex single barrel with chokes (cold winter mornings here).
One of the better engines we have had. Drove to the Texas classic and back, 2000 miles and not a drop of oil used.
My engine builder does know how to do it right he is so dam picky and it shows in is work. Very smooth engine.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the one I was looking at. I would think the heavier flywheel is slower starting out but keeps up the
Rotating mass hence the better gas mileage.
I've had light flywheels in my other cars and they revved quick but were also "race" cars and didn't care about the mileage...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if I was going to do a serious milage engine it would be a single port! I like the Idea of the 1300! But I would do one of the following maybe.

74mm Stroke
88mm bore
Single port heads.
Stock single port manifold,
1 3/8 Header,
Stock single port carb or even a 40 hp carb.
Stock Ish cam Perhaps:
With 1.1 ratio rockers,
CB-2280 with .394" Lift @ Valve, 222' @ .050" Bus or Baja
CB-2231 with .344" Lift @ Valve, 228' @ .050" Bug or Baja
Scat C-20 .350" Lift @ Valve, 234' @ .050" Bug

With 1.25 ratio rockers (this one could also be done with and 36mm Dellortos and dual port heads for a whole lot more performance and 24mpg in a bus.)
CB-2231 .392" Lift @ Valve, 236' @ .050" Bus or Baja or Bug.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I was building a mileage engine it would be a 1679 or a 1776. I won't ever again waste my time with any 74-76 stroke engine. You will get more MPG with dual carbs then you can with a single. You will get better MPG with a SVDA then you can with any mechanical only advance distributor. I also would run a lightened flywheel. It takes horsepower to turn a heavy flywheel. The only people that benefit from a heavy flywheel are people that do not know how to operate a clutch and shift a manual transaxle.


Your driving habits are more important for good MPG then engine specs.
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75smith
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion-use a lighter flywheel if doing more then 75% driving around town(lots of stop and go)

use a heavier flywheel if you do 50% or more driving hills(don't lose revs as fast, so smoother pedal=less gas to get back up to speed)

highway don't really matter, but I recommend a heavy one, as you should be driving at a constant speed, not stopping and going

the biggest thing is to get it dynamically balanced-the better the balance, the less power lost from heat and friction of the bearing keeping the crank in one spot

if your worried about mileage get the mag case-aluminum can be up to 20lbs more
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
If I was building a mileage engine it would be a 1679 or a 1776. I won't ever again waste my time with any 74-76 stroke engine. You will get more MPG with dual carbs then you can with a single. You will get better MPG with a SVDA then you can with any mechanical only advance distributor. I also would run a lightened flywheel. It takes horsepower to turn a heavy flywheel. The only people that benefit from a heavy flywheel are people that do not know how to operate a clutch and shift a manual transaxle.


Your driving habits are more important for good MPG then engine specs.


1679-1776 88mm 90.5 and 69mm stroke either way is good too. Won't have the umpth of the 74mm stroke though! Will need more RPM's to make the same Horse power and will have slightly less torque.
But yeah, People don't like the 74mm stroke because it requires the short 5.325" rods. Also the piston skirts need a little clearance work on their sides to clear the crankshaft on the down stroke. (Nothing a angle grinder can't handle!)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of the two I'd gamble my money on CB...CB manufactures the best stuff I've yet to buy but I had a similar experience with the mouthy CB Secretary looking for information on their race brake kit which by the way required machining to fit correctly.... After dealing with her I ended up buying it and various other parts from ACN instead due to Samba recommendation. Be advised more often than not ACN sells the exact same stuff as your local retailer but for top dollar. My CB rockers were old stock rusting in the package,my wiper motor, fuel gauge, fuel pump spacer, and push rod were all the same cheap junk in spite of the long winded praise of each items quality. The fuel pump lasted about a month and my bosch alternator as posted on my own thread as ready to ship, was not available after three weeks of wasting my time. Shipping is very slow and items are often drop shipped so it gets to you after primary orders are filled. I wouldn't want to be waiting on an unknown engine full of mystery brand parts touted as top end.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. Same stuff, just at a higher price. I was disappointed at a flywheel I bought at ACN. It was just a regular AA flywheel. Product looked good, but it was $30 more than everyone else. I thought I was buying a better product.
I've always had excellent luck with CB. Outstanding parts. And Pat knows his stuff!
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, didn't really wanna get into the dirty of each company, but I appreciate your opinions. You you are saying ac is higher than cb or vice versa?
You can get the 20% coupons from cb and load up a cart full of goodies for a cheaper price. In fact, I need to check my email for a coupon for Labor Day!!!!!!
The secretary kinda made me feel like crap by talking down on me.. Yes, I am new and had some questions on the different valves I was purchasing but she really made me feel like an idiot. I had a cart full of stuff and decided to scrap the whole sale and backed out......
So, if I am on the East Coast. Go with cb or John?

I also have a set of dellorto's (Freddie's) I bought that I would like to use with the motor. I've heard good things about them once they are tuned.
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