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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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 Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
I like the Idea of the 1300! But I would do one of the following maybe.
74mm Stroke
88mm bore |
I like the idea of a 1300 too! But why jump from such a small engine to such a large one? I personally don't understand why some guys recommend a bigger engine for more fuel mileage. Just look at the specs on the different VW engine sizes. The smaller the engine the better the effciency. The only exception is when you compare an engine with a better AFR and timing curve like the Digifant engine with one that doesn't. Imagine what MPGs a 1200cc Digifant engine would get! If a 1300SP gets 28.5mpg and a 1600SP gets 26.1mpg then I'm betting your stroked and bored engine will get even less.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have a running 1200 complete here. I considered throwing it in to see what it will do. I don't know about the internal condition though:(
I started it up for like 10 minutes a few months ago. It smoked a little at first but I dunno.... Hahaha |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| '67 Sunroof wrote: |
I have a running 1200 complete here. I considered throwing it in to see what it will do. I don't know about the internal condition though:(
I started it up for like 10 minutes a few months ago. It smoked a little at first but I dunno.... Hahaha |
31.5mpg right off the bat isn't bad for stock! Throw on a 30 or 31 PICT-3 or -4 and a vacuum opperated heated air cleaner, with a fully adjustable distributor and tune it to death and I'd bet you could get over 40mpg! Hopefully it doesn't need a full rebuild, but even then it might be cheaper than stroking and boreing a 1600.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8503
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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My vote is for CB.
If you dont want to learn how to build your own car and want someone to hold your hand the whole way ACN is your place (you will be paying higher part prices for this baby sitting service).
I prefer FRDs over any other dual single barrel setup, CB still sells the throttle shaft bushing which is a common wear item on these carbs.
Ive run two 1585s in the past, one SP the other DP both with a PICT 30, stock cam and a 1 3/8 header that both got 39mpg in a bug with 4.37 gears. My 1699 is still able to get 25-29mpg in a bus even after a ton of hard miles.
A smaller engine has to work harder (rev higher) while a larger engine can make the same power at lower rpm. Lower revs = potential for increased mpg and longer engine life. Regardless of what combo is used final tuning will make or brake the best thought out build.
My main concerns these days when planning mpg builds is fuel quality and availability. Programmable ignition/EFI is the key to real world daily drivers that want to survive the crap companies call gasoline today.
With the prices of core and restored 010/019 distributors the CB black box is looking pretty damn good! Even the price of a mega squirt/jolt junkyard EFI is comparable to some old Italian carbs.
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| A smaller engine has to work harder (rev higher) while a larger engine can make the same power at lower rpm. Lower revs = potential for increased mpg and longer engine life. |
As with anything there's a lot of pros and cons. You are always tempted to rev higher a smaller engine. Also you tend to full throttle it, causing it to enrich which also ends up as unburned fuel. You also have to keep the throttle open more while cruising, which creates less vacuum to help vaporize fuel, creating more unburned fuel.
However, you don't necessarily have to rev a small engine high nor keep it a full throttle. A lot might depend on where you drive or how slow you can go without driving yourself crazy. I keep my foot in it pretty good and shift as high as possible, usually keeping RPMs just above lugging.
The advantage of a smaller engine, however, does increase the total dynamic compression ratio. We all know the higher the CR the better the efficiency. The main reason I have gotten as much as 60mpg (US) in my Golf Diesel is the 23:1 CR. Obviously that kind of CR is out of the picture for a Gasoline engine. But still, in a gasoline engine a closed throttle cuts your true CR down even more from the dynamic CR.
For an example, lets say you have a 1L single cylinder engine with a 0.1L combustion chamber or about 10:1 CR (yes my numbers are lame, bear with me). If you run along at 50% throttle, for every complete cycle it takes 1/2L of air, stretches it out in a vacuum into the space of 1L and then compresses it into the combustion chamber. Since you are compresing 1/2L instead of 1L into a 0.1L combustion chamber you now have a 5:1 CR instead of a 10:1. But now take a 2L engine. Since it's much more powerful, you will only need about 25% throttle to cruise at the same speed as the 1L engine. But now you are taking and compressing 1/2L of air into a 0.2L combustion chamber. So you now have a 2.5:1 CR! The same principal is why higher gearing generally gives you better fuel mileage.
I guess what I'm saying is a smaller engine will get better fuel economy if cruising on long flat highways. But if you need acceleration you might chose a bigger engine. Just choose the least amount of power needed to keep your RPMs low.
| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Regardless of what combo is used final tuning will make or brake the best thought out build. |
This is absolutly true! Get the AFR right and then tune the advance curves as advanced as possible without hurting anything and you will make major improvements in fuel economy on any engine.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Man I'm glad I brought this up. I've learned quite a bit just from this thread!
Juan, you hit 1200 posts!!!! Is that a sign that I should stay with the 1200???
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Doktor
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2006
Posts: 94
Location: Croatia, Europe
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
Ive run two 1585s in the past, one SP the other DP both with a PICT 30, stock cam and a 1 3/8 header that both got 39mpg in a bug with 4.37 gears.
A smaller engine has to work harder (rev higher) while a larger engine can make the same power at lower rpm. Lower revs = potential for increased mpg and longer engine life. Regardless of what combo is used final tuning will make or brake the best thought out build.
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I can confirm good mpg on a stock 1600DP, measured yesterday when I was on a longer trip with enough time to calculate it properly.
I'm running totally stock 1600DP (34 carb, stock exhaust) with same 4.37 gearabox, and got about 36mpg (converted from litres).
I bet I can get more mpg if I find some good 10w-30 oil to replace 20w-50. |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Why do you have to buy all your parts from the same place?
If all your interested in is cheapest price then your quality and performance will suffer.
The 2276 engine I built last winter for my Ghia I purchased parts from.
CB Performance
Aircooled.net
Gene Berg
DRD Racing heads
Local Bugpack parts store
Samba Classifieds
eBay
Jeg's
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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gooser
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2008
Posts: 766
Location: danville virginia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| dan, (or anyone else) you say that people don't like 74mm cranks because you need to use 5.325 rods but if you need them then you need them. what's wrong or undesirable with these rods? |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Nothing is wrong with them. They are just a royal pain in the ass to build.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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gooser
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2008
Posts: 766
Location: danville virginia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: |
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pain in the ass in what way?
my reason for asking is that i was going with an 1800 build, i already have the pistons and cylinders but i haven't ordered my crankshaft and rods yet. |
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SHARK
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| '67 Sunroof wrote: |
Okay, didn't really wanna get into the dirty of each company, but I appreciate your opinions. You you are saying ac is higher than cb or vice versa?
You can get the 20% coupons from cb and load up a cart full of goodies for a cheaper price. In fact, I need to check my email for a coupon for Labor Day!!!!!!
The secretary kinda made me feel like crap by talking down on me.. Yes, I am new and had some questions on the different valves I was purchasing but she really made me feel like an idiot. I had a cart full of stuff and decided to scrap the whole sale and backed out......
So, if I am on the East Coast. Go with cb or John?
I also have a set of dellorto's (Freddie's) I bought that I would like to use with the motor. I've heard good things about them once they are tuned. |
I'd go with CB based on the quality of their house brand items. For the record bashing was not my goal of either company, just sharing my experience which is that it is very hard to get VW parts that do not require some sort of modification no matter who you buy from. You can find deals at ACN too however on average the higher cost is claimed to go to higher quality and I have not found this to be the case. |
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spanky324
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2006
Posts: 1070
Location: Greeley Pa
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Talk to John at AC.net he wont steer you wrong!!Period |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Gooser I think he said he had to notch the block for them to work-but it doesn't seem like that's THAT big of a deal.
What is so bad about the shorties other than notching the block?
I'm not so sure if saving a buck relates to worse quality as one poster said his parts were MORE at ac.net but realized they were the same parts that he could get elsewhere for cheaper. Same parts are same parts regardless of price IMO.
I think you are paying for the expertise you get along with the sale.
I noticed while looking into the exhaust ports of my 1200 heads with a flashlight that the ports looks a little "melted" ....no bueno....
Last edited by 67 Sunroof on Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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The higher cost is also for no hassle returns, and answers to questions before/after the sale.
We do return a LOT of stuff to mfg that has problems, that other stores would likely have no problem selling off to customers.
I know we also have lemons that wind up going out the door, it's pretty much impossible for this to not happen nowadays. But we won't ignore you if you tell us about it, we'll try to come up with a solution.
Many of the items we sell are available elsewhere for less. But good luck getting an installation or tech question answered about it. If you absolutely know your stuff and know what you need, we are likely not the best store for you to buy your stuff from. Our target customer is the one that needs help both in choosing the proper parts, and help adjusting or installing it.
The one main issue that does come up, that I have to mention, is that as a rule replacement items are sent the same way the initial order is. If you order something and it's shipped via ground, and have a problem, the replacement is NOT going to be shipped next day, unless you are paying the difference. It will be shipped the same way the initial order was, which in this case was "via ground". It's not possible for us to eat the costs on express shipping, but some people think to think "we owe them this".
Our philosophy is on this is if you are in such a hurry on the item, you'd have ordered it via Next Day in the first place. Plan ahead so you can deal with "glitches", they do happen and you have to be prepared to work around them.
For someone in the market for an engine, I do think we have the finest long blocks available ANYWHERE. If you are going to be building several engines, it makes sense to buy the proper tools, and learn how to do the job yourself. But if you need ONE engine, building it yourself is not going to save you any money; in fact it may cost you more as mistakes are made and you have to spend to fix them and possible damage from it.
One example of this is finding out that there is a defective flywheel BEFORE you get the engine balanced. Or bearing clearances (bad crank, bad rods), also before balancing. It happens on 15% of the engines we build, causes delays and headaches.
Buying an engine and putting it in is a lot easier for most folks, they can work on other stuff while we are dealing with the numerous hassles of building a long block (which includes a lot of defective parts, and checking everything out 3x). If you don't know what to look for, building an engine for the first time can be a rude awakening, especially if you come from the V8 circle.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
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AlteWagen
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Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8503
Location: PNW
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| gooser wrote: |
| dan, (or anyone else) you say that people don't like 74mm cranks because you need to use 5.325 rods but if you need them then you need them. what's wrong or undesirable with these rods? |
Nothing wrong at all. 74 or 76 are no more difficult IMO.
Don't need short rods but they make it more convenient to fit in the BUG engine compartment. 90.5 and larger A pistons do not require clearanced skirts.
Only AA makes a cheap 5.325 I beam, and you don't want to buy these, unless quality improves..
I hope John C. can put some pressure to them to make a better quality batch because the short rods are darn handy. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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CPR hasn't done our long blocks for a couple years at least. We didn't have problems, but due to parts quality issues we are doing it locally.
| AlteWagen wrote: |
| So you no longer sub out to CPR to have them build your long blocks? |
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
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67 Sunroof
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for chiming in, John.
I agree that if I am doing multiple motors it may pay off in the long run but, for now, I just need a good motor, built solid to bolt in and pretty much go. I have basic knowledge but when it comes to motors and the info I have been reading I am a little skeered!!!!
John, how many mileage master motors do you have out there and have you had any "issues" arise from your customers? Feel free to pm if you want.
How long has the "mileage master" theory been out and has there been advances since it's first debut?
Heavier flywheel or lighter? |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Search "1300 extra mileage engine". It may give more ideas. |
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