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Installing A Fresh Air Shut Off Flap
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: Installing A Fresh Air Shut Off Flap Reply with quote

I'm rebuilding my front Heater Assembly, the normal stuff, clean lubricate the fan motor, new heater core, new foam on the heater doors and cleaning up all of the mouse piss and crap!

I'm trying to understand the air flow concept.

Four (4) levers.
1. Controls the hot water heater valve. On/Off/Partial

2. Controls the flap for the fresh air into the front crash beam that delivers air to the rear of the Van. Open/Closed/Partial

3. Controls air to the Defroster Vents. On/Off/Partial

4. Controls air to the front footwell in front of the gear shift (I don't have the floor duct to the rear passenger area but some do) On/Off/Partial

And then there is another Flap, two actually that swing free. They open into the Fresh Air Intake chamber.
EDIT: officially called the "Forced Air Flaps"
These confuse me.
It seems to me that whenever the Van is in motion, Air being rammed into the heater box will simply push these flaps open thus pressurizing the heater core and forcing air out of the various flaps that levers 2-4 control.
There is a third exit out of the incoming air box and that goes into the blower fan, there is no flap, just the squirrel cage for the fan.

It is obvious that There is no way to shut off fresh air flow just as there is no way to heat using cabin air.

My question....... What do these flaps control?
Is there enough force from the fan motor to blow them shut as the fan pushes air out of various controlled vents?

EDIT: I'm guessing that if you are stopped and the fan is running, these Forced Air Flaps will swing closed by gravity and your blower fan will not be blowing air back out of the Vans front grill but instead continue the flow of warm air to the passengers?
If it is true that these flaps swing open when in motion, the blower fan with it's assorted speeds is basically rendered useless except when stopped or when driving very slowly??

Just call me confused, I'm sure there is a logic to it all but right now it is eluding me.

Air box towards fresh air inlet, it's dirty and the mice have been in here!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Screw driver point resting on closed gravity air flap (there are two of these flaps but just one close up in photo).......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Handle of screwdriver holding open the same gravity air flap.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:42 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heater Box Airflow schematic.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Blow apart of Heater Box.........
Interestingly, mine does not have the shown "Main Cut Off Flap"......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm coming up with a theory.

I've been looking at, working on or walking by this heater box all day, puzzling quite a bit over the design with the free swinging Forced Air Flaps.

If the defroster flaps are closed, the crash Beam duct rear air flaps are closed and the Heater Flaps are closed air hasn't anywhere to go so it doesn't. There will be flap leakage, it's inevitable at speed, so is this VW continuos cabin ventilation that the Feds mandated? Controlled air infiltration?

As soon as you open a flap...... Any flap the air will come rushing in pushing open those flaps and flooding the cabin with cool or hot, air as the driver desires?

The pipe to the rear cannot produce heated air, only cool air can pass. The only heated air possible is forced into the dash area.

The fan is really only there to move air when forward motion has ceased.
How forceful the air comes out of vents is determined by how many vents are open and how fast you are traveling along the highway.

Think

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject: forced air Reply with quote

I agree with your theory about the fan only being needed when stopped or moving slow. My van's blower stopped working 2 yrs ago-but I have no issues staying warm, or keeping windows defrosted.

Only when not moving, do I have fogging issues. So I just turn up my rear heater. I have a new blower, but since the forced air works fine. I am in no rush to pull the dash.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came to same conclusions when I had my heater box out. Seems what looked like a newer heater core started to let off a little coolant smell a couple months after doing my blower motor. When I get in there again I will look into a way to close those flaps when I want to. There has been a fair amount of discussion on this and some have closed them permanently. My reason is mainly to stop dust from getting in on a dirt road when someone is in front of you. Might be better to add a flap out in front of them that blocks the air intake "tunnel" while also opening an area that lets cabin air recirculate.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes, I think that I think too much and go getting myself in trouble or creating more work for myself!

My conclusion on this Heater/Fresh Air system is quite simply that it Sucks!
----------------------
So............

I've been pondering this uncontrolled fresh air infiltration problem for a long time now.
This post has thus far produced precious few if any solutions as well.

So, I'm thinking........
"There is a LOT of fresh air ramming into the heater box while driving, you cannot ask a few wispy foam rubber seals to totally stop this onslaught of air.
There has to be a way to stop the vast majority of the air BEFORE it hits the heater box, the foam seals CAN easily contain a little air......."

I'm looking and thinking that I need to come up with a way to EASILY ..........

1) shut off the air ram effect that does not involve stopping, getting out tools, remove the front grill, get a roll of Duct tape or what have you and tape over the air intake opening......

2) controlled remotely via Cable somehow........

3) this new flap when closed will be pushed tighter shut by the wind velocity rather than pushed open by the wind.......

4) the sheer volume of fresh air opening seems rathe large, why so many square inches? Is it so the rear fresh air system can really put out the blast?
If I were to reduce the square inches of fresh air say by half...... I don't see that would seriously alter the comfort of the front seat passengers.........

5) I also need to be able to easily recirculate interior air.....

6) be able to seasonally easily shut off the hot water flow to the heater core.....

7) be able to direct warm air out of the side dash vents......

Hmmmmmmmm..........
All the while using the factory Heater Box, not a HUGE amount of fabrication work and not spinning big numbers... $$$'s.........

I read this article awhile back with great interest, while I currently do not plan on in dash AC his concepts are good.......
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6540000
here is a quote from it that I find interesting...........


Howesight wrote:
There is no sense in having a front AC system if hot air can still come in through the VW fresh air ducts, so I installed closing flaps that will be operated by a vacuum servo. The flaps are also need for cool-weather de-humidifier operation since I am ducting some (not a lot) of chilled air into the Vanagon air box. Here are some pics of the fresh air closure flaps:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1011101.jpg[/img]

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used 9/32 steel dowel, sheet metal, my MIG welder and some POR 15 for rust resistance.

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Last edited by djkeev on Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surfing........ Looking........ Thinking...........

I stumbled upon this thread again.....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507871

While I wouldn't totally block fresh air off, as Beetsport has done (and he bemoans having done so), I do see utilizing his block off concept..........

I'm thinking that if I Block off the drivers inlet completely and then on the passenger side (Right for you backwards Nations Wink ) create a moveable cable controlled flap opening OUT and swinging DOWN into the Vans intake air chute...... Why the Right Side? Room to create a cable control flap system, the Left side is so full of wires, hoses, brakes and crap! For you "backwards" folk, I'd do the mod on the left side, your passenger side for the same reasons.....

Anyway, some quotes and photos from the above link......
Beetsport wrote:
.............. The fresh air is blocked off. Your windows now will be the fresh air point of entry Laughing If going through this again I would design a fresh air entry with another blend door separate from the Vintage Air unit to switch between fresh and recirculation air. My concern would be noise from the fresh air coming in.............

Large Fresh air opening.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Fresh air blocked off.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


............

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting link answering some questions and posing others.........
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277650&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fresh air blocked off is a bad idea unless you live in Death Valley. You are going to find that warmed outside air is necessary to defog the front window in humid weather. If you need more heat you are better off wrapping foam insulation tubes around your heater hoses.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gnarlodious wrote:
Fresh air blocked off is a bad idea unless you live in Death Valley. You are going to find that warmed outside air is necessary to defog the front window in humid weather. If you need more heat you are better off wrapping foam insulation tubes around your heater hoses.


Agreed, that's why I'm thinking of REDUCING outside fresh air volume, not eliminating outside air.........

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always leave the air to the back open unless I need full flow to the front for some reason. This lessens the pressure in the box and stops it from whistling.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this is of any use to you but.....

While doing my engine conversion, I needed to modify the heater box to accept a heater core. Since I'd experienced driving with no heat (air cooled engine, defunct heater), with the heater box on my bench, it occurred to me that by removing the fresh air ram flaps and blocking the fresh air flap openings, the box would recycle cabin air if the fresh air intake was blocked. I did so. Box on bench, even with 1/2 of the fresh air intake blocked, the box would pull air in via the side vents.

For some reason I had it in my head that a flap needed to be installed at the opening of the fresh air ram. I attempted this but the shape of the ram was beyond my fabricating skills at the time so it never happened. There is no flap installed there. The main air control flap works fine. When driving, if I close the main intake flap, there is virtually no air flow. I had resealed the flaps some years ago with close cell foam tape. It has held up well.

Neil.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the photo!
Ideas, ideas, ideas! Idea Idea

I learned long ago, start with cardboard!

It's cheap, easy to cut and manipulate and most importantly rarely cuts you while you work with it!

A template to block off air flow.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Right Inlet Drawn upon the Template......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A cardboard door to see how much door I can make and any obstacles to being able to swing. Also how can I operate the door using a cable? ........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hmmmmmmmm.........

While I think that making two air control doors able to work simultaneously is completely doable if I link them with a single rod............ Let's be honest, there are some huge obstacles to overcome.

I think that if I use one door for now, it will tell me if I'm heading in the right direction with minimal effort put forth!

Pulling the Heater Box really isn't all THAT much work! Shocked
To pull the dash again for modifications isn't out if the realm of possibility at a future date.

Everything I'm doing for this modification is absolutely 100% reversable except for a hole or two drilled.....easily fixed if need be! Wink

Hmmmmmmm ......... looking at the fresh air box.........
I have space next to the upper Right mounting bolt where I can drill a hole to run an operating cable.

If I fasten a rod to the back of the door I can make a loop of cable to slip over the rod........... I of course need to make an adjustable cable housing holder below the Wiper Motor somewhere.......
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, almost 1 1/2" of space in the upper right of the air duct behind the dash metal........ The Green Tape Arrow points to the approximate area that the operating cable would pass into the fresh air chamber to hook onto a rod on the operating door........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the same area with the Heater Box in place, lots of room to add a cable and cable support..........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And LOOK!!!!
All here in the Shop waiting to be used.
The best is the piece of off white 1/4" ABS left over from a task years ago that I will make the operating door from, rigid, easy to work and easy to glue......
Sheet Metal, ABS, ABS Glue, small steel rod for the hinge and the operating lever......... Cable...... I've got a cable somewhere in my stash!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's time to design the actual door, make it out of cardboard, tape the rod to the door, insert operating cable........
Hmmmmmmm Idea Laughing

Dave
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need a NICE LOOKING cable operating knob/lever to mount on the dash front......... I'm thinking a slide lever........
Anyone? Anyone? ........
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying to Keep It Simple Stupid KISS........ I'm opting for a simple rectangular door right now.

Yes, it's smaller than I had envisioned but...... We're experimenting Right?? Embarassed

14 sq inches of opening........ The factory has two (2) 27 sq inch openings........ Going from 54sq inches to 14 may be a tad too much do you think?
I guess it wouldn't be difficult to add height and angle the bottom leaving room for the hinge right near the Air opening on the Van...... I do need to leave a 1/2" or so for the flap to seal against the metal......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cutting the metal block off plate.........
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok....... Better, not huge but visually more comforting anyway.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Flap created out of Card Board......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's why you use cardboard!
Flap 1.0 was lacking sealing surface mainly on the top!
Flap 2.0 fixed this issue! ........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Test fitting in the Van..... Flap 2.0 became Flap 3.0 because of trimming needed to clear the sheet metal opening!.........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cut out transferred from cardboard to metal and is cut out using a air powered die grinder fitted with a fiber metal cut iff wheel.

I chose this method over tin snips because I did NOT want to distort the sheet metal at all.

Any distortion would make for air sealing headaches once installed.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Opening cut!.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I marked out the Heat Box mounting screw holes on the card board and then transferred the openings to the sheet metal for accurate placement....... I also filled the cut edges smooth and dull so as to not cut myself or hang up on the foam air seal that I will install.

Test Fit with the cardboard door!.......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now to cut an ABS Door...........
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traced around the card board flap pattern onto the ABS, time to cut!.....
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Flap cut out, edges filed clean and smooth, setting in place..... Now.....
How to Hinge it?.......
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Testing the ABS Flap fit....... The hinge right now is a simple piece of Tape......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Trying to figure out how much room I have for making a hinge, I removed the ABS Flap and traced the Fresh Air opening onto the Sheet Metal
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The flap removed with two tracings on the Sheet Metal.
The outer one with arrows is the Air Box opening in the Van Body,
The inner one is where the air flap sets and works clearing the Body opening......
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

--------------

Now for the HINGE.........

I'm thinking of doing a simple rod and pivot point hinge.
It's easy to make, cheap and I already have the rod! Wink

Just a basic 1/8" steel rod available at any hardware store USA.

I will cut out the bottom edge that sets against the sheet metal about 1/16" deep by 1/8" wide. I don't want flush ti the sheet metal for I will be putting on a foam gasket to seal out the air when closed........ (The black arrows are the trace of the heater opening I made while I was test fitting the ABS door.)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Unfortunately when I do this, because I enlarged the size of the ABS flap I've shorted myself on hinge space! I am too close to the bottom edges with my hinge rod.
To fix this I will need to cut away just a tad of the Body as noted by the Green Arrows pointing at the two black marks where the metal will be removed.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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