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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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 Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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The vent at the bottom is to let dirt fall out when you back off the throttle.
The Offroad filter housing is fine if you can find an adapter from 2-5/8" to 2".
What filter element do you have for it or are you planning to use. I recommend that if you pick a K&N type filter, that you also add a paper filter inside of it.
K&N claims HP increase because their filter element allows bigger particles through, including fine dust.
My son just bought a Ranger pickup. He went to do a 1st service including replacing the air filter. So he bought a Fram. Went to put it in and found it had a K&N. And lots of fine dust all over the inside of the airbox after the filter.
I learned about this decades ago doing post-race inspection of offroad race cars. Racers with K&N filters ALWAYS had fine dust inside the carb Foam and/or paper filters never had visible dust inside unless the filter, housing or ducting was damaged.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
The vent at the bottom is to let dirt fall out when you back off the throttle.
The Offroad filter housing is fine if you can find an adapter from 2-5/8" to 2".
What filter element do you have for it or are you planning to use. I recommend that if you pick a K&N type filter, that you also add a paper filter inside of it.
K&N claims HP increase because their filter element allows bigger particles through, including fine dust.
My son just bought a Ranger pickup. He went to do a 1st service including replacing the air filter. So he bought a Fram. Went to put it in and found it had a K&N. And lots of fine dust all over the inside of the airbox after the filter.
I learned about this decades ago doing post-race inspection of offroad race cars. Racers with K&N filters ALWAYS had fine dust inside the carb Foam and/or paper filters never had visible dust inside unless the filter, housing or ducting was damaged. |
The plan was to have an outer paper filter with a foam inner, I know your not supposed to oil a paper filter but should/could I oil the foam inner one?
Or should I do a different combination? Just paper with no inner? Gauze and paper? Gauze and foam? I would have to say I don't really like the idea of oiling gauze for the main filter.
dustymojave, I've seen you post on my threads quite a few times, and I have to say, you give some of the best answers and advice, not only do you answer the question but you give the reasons why you do it that way, and the experience to back it up. Thanks.
^^ This guy really knows his stuff 
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Multi-year baja project that seems to never end
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5408
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I always respect his answers as well. It is nice to have a guy that has been around the block a few times, has seen loads to race quality rides, and knows them inside and out. Not saying I always agree 100% with what he says, but he has yet to lead me or anybody else astray. That I admire greatly when there is so much BS to sift through online. Thanks Richard!!! 
As for your question, yes, oil the foam inner one. Foam filters don't work worth a dang if they are not oiled. The oil does the filtering for the most part. Wash it in degreaser to get the dirty oil off, re-oil, and instal. Engine oil works fine for this.
I detest K&N filters as stand alone units. I too have seen many a dusty intake from them. Gauze filters of any sort really. They work ok with an oiled foam pre-filter to keep the heavy stuff off.
From observation, I have never seen dust in the intake with paper, oiled foam, or oil bath air cleaners. I have seen dust in probably a dozen Gauze filter set ups.
For whatever reason, it seams like large particles dry out the filter for lack of a better word...like the oil on the gauze wicks around the large particles, and the gauze is left dry and dust can be sucked right through the corse filter element. I saw another one that got wet when water splashed up into the engine compartment. the light oil used to spray onto the filters apparently doesn't hold up to water well, and it sucked a ton of dust through it after getting wet. Long story short, I do not trust stand alone K&N, or similar gauze filters, to work well on their own.
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Cortland15B wrote: |
The plan was to have an outer paper filter with a foam inner, I know your not supposed to oil a paper filter but should/could I oil the foam inner one?
Or should I do a different combination? Just paper with no inner? Gauze and paper? Gauze and foam? I would have to say I don't really like the idea of oiling gauze for the main filter. |
I actually prefer oiled foam over paper. But most of those air cleaners came with paper over foam. The foam SHOULD be oiled. Whenever you use gauze elements, they SHOULD be oiled. They REALLY let dust through if they are not oiled. Most paper filter elements will fall apart if you oil the paper. The binders in the paper are not formulated for that use. Back in the 70s and 80s, AC Delco sold paper elements which were factory oiled. Made with paper formulated for the oil. They worked real well. I used them on customer offroad race cars. But people driving on the street didn't get them or see the point. I would combine paper with gauze or foam, but not too likely gauze and foam. Gauze with paper because gauze is good for the big stuff and paper for the finer stuff. A foam inside of paper last practically forever between cleanings. The foam will usually need to be re-oiled before it needs to be cleaned. Foam outside of paper, the paper will need to be replaced after a while, but again, the foam will catch the big stuff and get quite dirty. oiled foam catches stuff that oiled gauze will not. To a certain extent, oiled foam or gauze works better as the outside gets more dirty. The spaces get smaller as it gets more dirty. When the the surface gets so dirty that the dirt on the surface is no longer oily, dirt no longer is caught and can then pass through more easily, even if the holes are smaller. So the filter works better, better,better, then poorer, poorer...
| Cortland15B wrote: |
dustymojave, I've seen you post on my threads quite a few times, and I have to say, you give some of the best answers and advice, not only do you answer the question but you give the reasons why you do it that way, and the experience to back it up. Thanks.
^^ This guy really knows his stuff |
Thank YOU!! 
I have always been a person who does things because it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, I don't do it until either I figure out why it makes sense or someone with the experience explains to me in a way which makes sense. And just because I say it should be so, doesn't mean any one else should follow what I say unless it makes sense to them.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think you have both made up my mind on which kinds to use. Definitely paper and foam. With paper on the outside and the foam on the inside most likely.
With what vanapplebomb said about the filter getting wet and taking off the oil, this is a big problem for me because it rains a lot where I am at, plus there will be some water where I will be off-roading. How does water effect a paper filter?
You explain how the mechanics of the foam and gauze work, with the filtering getting better as it gets dirtier until it just gets too dirty and performance drops. How do paper filters work? Like you I also like to know how the things work, and what makes them better.
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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Sandbar Norm
Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2008
Posts: 115
Location: A Sandbar in Fl.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: |
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I will say that all K&N filters are not the same.
http://www.knfilters.com/search/univcone.aspx
Here are 3 that are the same size. (2.75 inlet dia.)
RU-4960
RU-4960XD
RX-4960
I'm using the XD model with a Filter Wrap (RX-4990DR)
The gets cleaned and oil often.
So far (4 years now) the inside of my TB has been clean.
That's probably because it does get cleaned & oiled often.
Is it as good as a canister style, probably not.
Norm |
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heywebonya
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Portage, MI
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Courtland15B, The housing came with a filter and has a 1.75 ID and ~ 2" OD for the flange. This is running on my stock carb with a 1641 mild engine.
I liked the look more than the Baja ability of it.
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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy! |
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ORANGECRUSHer
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2647
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Like I said, not all perfectly maintained filters are the same.
I run K&N on my Harley and sportbikes only because I do not run them offroad and it's customary to constantly inspect a high performance vehicle. But I really don't think they have any place on a offroad machine. A pre-filter like Outerwears helps a lot with gauze filters (dry/K&N). That being said, I bought a huge K&N for my project buggy, but I planned on having a two stage system and a Outerwear on the K&N. Still haven't figured out the first stage yet.
Foam should always be oiled with a tacky spray you can get at a dirt bike merchant. I forget what the name is of the stuff I used on my dirt bikes, No-Toil ? It comes with two components, the oil, and a cleaner which dissolves their oil effortlessly in water. That's what I'd use on that foam.
A centrifugal filter has to have some device to induce a spin. Most centrif filters will have a helicopter looking plastic ring of angled blades. There was a link to a page with a Latest Rage filter that had this. I'm not a big LR fan but that has been the best one I've seen on this thread so far. Any heavy equipment vehical will have them also but their CFM rating will be tons higher. I bet that Kabota one will work good too.
Another option is to add something like this
I've never seen one on a buggy but I know from experience they remove a lot of crap from the air before it ever gets to the filter. It's what I'm contemplating on for my 1st stage.
http://www.bkfilters.co.nz/filters/air/precleaners/
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| ORANGECRUSHer wrote: |
Like I said, not all perfectly maintained filters are the same.
I run K&N on my Harley and sportbikes only because I do not run them offroad and it's customary to constantly inspect a high performance vehicle. But I really don't think they have any place on a offroad machine. A pre-filter like Outerwears helps a lot with gauze filters (dry/K&N). That being said, I bought a huge K&N for my project buggy, but I planned on having a two stage system and a Outerwear on the K&N. Still haven't figured out the first stage yet.
Foam should always be oiled with a tacky spray you can get at a dirt bike merchant. I forget what the name is of the stuff I used on my dirt bikes, No-Toil ? It comes with two components, the oil, and a cleaner which dissolves their oil effortlessly in water. That's what I'd use on that foam.
A centrifugal filter has to have some device to induce a spin. Most centrif filters will have a helicopter looking plastic ring of angled blades. There was a link to a page with a Latest Rage filter that had this. I'm not a big LR fan but that has been the best one I've seen on this thread so far. Any heavy equipment vehical will have them also but their CFM rating will be tons higher. I bet that Kabota one will work good too.
Another option is to add something like this
I've never seen one on a buggy but I know from experience they remove a lot of crap from the air before it ever gets to the filter. It's what I'm contemplating on for my 1st stage.
http://www.bkfilters.co.nz/filters/air/precleaners/ |
I would probably do the LR dust devil body with that pre-cleaner. Finding space in the engine compartment for all this stuff would be hard though, the filter and pre-cleaner. For right now the one I just got is fine with me. I'll see how it works and go from there.
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ORANGECRUSHer
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2647
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Cortland15B wrote: |
I would probably do the LR dust devil body with that pre-cleaner. Finding space in the engine compartment for all this stuff would be hard though, the filter and pre-cleaner. For right now the one I just got is fine with me. I'll see how it works and go from there. |
I know, space is a premium that's for sho. I just wanted to add my two cents to the topic. I wasn't criticizing your choice just so you know. I have a tendency to come off a bit harsh on the internet.
Be sure to let us know how you like it.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ORANGECRUSHer wrote: |
| Cortland15B wrote: |
I would probably do the LR dust devil body with that pre-cleaner. Finding space in the engine compartment for all this stuff would be hard though, the filter and pre-cleaner. For right now the one I just got is fine with me. I'll see how it works and go from there. |
I know, space is a premium that's for sho. I just wanted to add my two cents to the topic. I wasn't criticizing your choice just so you know. I have a tendency to come off a bit harsh on the internet.
Be sure to let us know how you like it. |
Oh no its fine, I didn't think you were really criticizing me or that you were harsh. I'm usually always open to your opinions so don't be afraid to share. This is a post about centrifugal air filters after all, kind of went off topic by me buying a non-centrifugal filter. A topic derailed by its creator lol. But I still want it to be useful to people who are thinking of getting a centrifugal filter.
I did find a adapter that worked from the carb to the filter. It was a snug fit on both ends and I ended up having to bend in the tabs on the air filter a little bit. But it worked out perfect, adds the perfect amount of height to it and seems to be very secure. It was a fernco 2" x 1 1/2" adapter, found it in the PVC/roofing section of a local hardware store. I tried the 3" x 2" but it was too big on both ends.
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Should work fine. The only beware about it is to keep an eye on the inside of the adapter to make sure it doesn't soften or otherwise deteriorate from fuel contact. And there WILL be a fuel up there. A VW engine produces a fuel vapor "standoff" or "reversion wave" up into the air cleaner.
Also , add a support from the outer edge of the air filter body to the fan shroud or something to keep the air cleaner from taking it's own path down the trail.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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sloboatnova
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Joined: September 20, 2009
Posts: 989
Location: Broken Arrow, Ok
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Also be aware that if you get into water or mud deep enough to get at the pulley, it can sling the mud straight up onto the front edge of the filter getting it wet. This happened to me enough that the car would run rich, and I mean really rich. If I had been smarter, maybe I would have taken it more seriously and dealt with it accordingly and not washed the oil from my cylinders enough to wear out the rings. This happened over a period of time of about 2 - 3 years.
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Vanapplebomb
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