Reduction Gear Box - Bearings

[Riff Raff]

To summarize what Kevin is saying -
The clunk sounds like dropped fulcrum.
You need to start digging into that side to find out what the clunk is.
Get started and keep going until you find the problem.
Maybe you will get lucky and find something in the RGB
Just do

Whenever I have the trans torn down to a point where there is any possibility of dropping a fulcrum, I pull the side gear and assemble the axle and fulcrums in the side gear, then insert the whole thing back into the centre section. I then make extra sure that I keep the axle bottomed out in the side gear and keep the angles of movement small.
That minimizes the chances of slipping a fulcrum plate.
I also built a simple jig to hold the axles at close to a 90 degree angle from the centre section. that helps a lot to keep everything aligned while working on the transaxle.

_________________
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge
- Daniel Boorstin

[dma1260]

Kevin:

Thanks for the advice . . I have the Bently manual (and used it ALOT) to do
this job . . (no mention of fulcrums falling out) unless I missed it ?

I looked at small nut reduction photo essay on Samba . . very good very helpful
no mention of Fulcrums falling in . . so I guess my frustration is I know what the Fulcrums are . . I know where they are and NOW I know. . they can fall in to the Spade. My other frustration is . . car was running fine . . no noise . . no real reason to replace the RGB's other then shop said they are on their way out.

I built a tool to pull & press the bearings back it (was feeling really smart about that !) and then I go to turn the wheel / hub . . and I'm like Hummm . . . why
is this sooooo stiff ! I should have turned the wheel prior to doing the work . . (as I did with the drivers side) for all I know it's been stiff before I got into the bearing replacement . . but it did not make the noise (CLUNK . . .CLUNK . . CLUNK . . ) that's for sure.

So now after finally having a couple of weeks of flawless run time . . I go and tweek the Bus yet again . . and now I'm WAY OVER MY HEAD . . and will need to get it towed to a shop to do this job . . after I just paid someone else to put in a NEW Freeway Flyer.

Thanks for the advise and help !

Tony

[Riff Raff]

If you have the mechanical abilities to take the RGB apart, build your own puller, pull and replace bearings, then going the extra bit to seat the axles in the side gear, you can easily accomplish.
You are eminently capable of digging in a little further.

Once you have the RGB half off and the 6305 bearing pulled from the top axle, undo the axle housing from the centre section (6 nuts) and pull the axle housing off over the axle. Take the plastic Daisy off as well.
Now you need either a robust set of snap ring pliers, or custom grind the tips of a set of needle nose pliers to get the BF snap ring removed that holds the axle in place.
Withdraw the snap ring and the big retaining washer and you can now withdraw the axle from the side gear.
Withdraw the side gear (the fulcrum plates will be loose in it) and you can then begin reassembling everything after you clean it all up.

I imagine this is covered in the Bentley, and is a straightforward job.
I apply a thin coat of white grease to the fulcrum plates before installation as they adhere to the spade on the axle better for installation.
Tear back into it - you will get a better understanding of your bus and a great feeling of accomplishment>

YOU CAN DO IT!
_________________
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge
- Daniel Boorstin

[BarryL]

[dma1260]

Thanks all for the info . . I sent Rick Wright a e-mail discussing this issue and he agrees with the Fulcrum plate fell out diagnostic.

I will work backwards . . and hope the issue is only in the RGB - but I doubt it.

Are there any links to diagrams of the removal of the axle / tube from the transmission and fulcrum assembly ? I don't want to get in there and find myself lost . . with the whole thing apart. From what I see from the Bently manual . . it looks like the only way to do this is to pull the transmission and I don't want to do that . . if I don't have to.

I have never pulled an engine . . and I don't have the time and or help and or space to pull this off right now. As far as crown and NEW fulcrum plates and possible new axle . . suggestions as to what vendor would have these parts available ?

Thanks . . . again for all the help.

Tony

[klcarrie]

Lots of good pictures and how to in Pete's Detroit to Alaska thread.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=596474&highlight=detroit+alaska

Pulling an engine is EASY.
Pulling a transaxle is also EASY.

Just take a breath between each step.

If you don't know where each nut and bolt goes, Put each fastener, bearing, circlip into the apropriate bags; label them.

Remember,
You can do it.

I got my fulcrums from Concept1.ca. Try your local supplier. I think CIP1.com has crown gears. Make sure to get gears with the same amount of teeth as the ones you pull out.
You can contact Campingbox regarding axles or start asking your local guru network; axle shafts take a bit of time to source and you will want a good second pair anyway. Hint, you might have to get a complete split-case axle to find good shafts. Old split cases might not have had much time or wear on the axles as freeway flyers.

Do not ignore the clunk or PDQ you will have a broken shaft. That ain't cool.

K
_________________
Pritchin'
--
Currently looking for:

- Bay Bus Pinion Nut Socket

- 64-67 big nut (rear) drums and brake parts, 46mm axle nuts (Big Nuts)

--
'55 Wolfburg Pannel Project
'55 Wolfsburg SC Project
'71 Westy

[BarryL]

I've done it in the bus but it's hateful but it will save you all the pulling aspect. You will be reaching in and crammed in close to the side of the center section.

Show a picture of how messy your transaxle is in that area to be worked.

[BarryL]

[j.pickens]

[dma1260]

Hey all - thanks for all your help & suggestions !

Here is the latest - I spoke to a number of people regarded the possible dropping of the Fulcrum plate(s). A few seasoned mechanics think it's not possible because the displaced plate would have made the axle stick out to far
to put the RGB cover back on. Opinion is the axle would stick out further and the
bearing would not have seated into the housing flush. Please take a look at the pictures I posted with this post.

The other few peeps in the know that I spoke to said it's very possible to put the RGB housing back together with a Fulcrum out of wack. As I mentioned the sound was a Clunk . . Clunk . . in the same spot in the wheel rotation but it was not a HARD metal on metal sound . . more like a rubbing sound. I decided to take the RGB apart again today . . (that was a drag - after having put it all back together and getting all the seals right and adjusting brakes and bleeding them - etc.) Pulled it apart today - working backwards in the hope to find the problem in the RGB and not having to pull the axle while it's in the bus.

What I noticed was the lower axel (one you put the wheel on - that gets spun by the top axel that goes into the tranny) was slightly rubbing on the upper bearing that seats into the housing and holds the top axle. It was not a major gash into the ring of the upper bearing . . but it was there. I looked at the teeth in the gear and they had some sharp edges / wear from rubbing on the rim of the top bearing. I thought I pressed that top / tranny axle bearing all the way in but I was concerned about being to hard on the case and bearings while pressing them in - so I got them in as far as I thought the originals were.

With only the top axle and the top bearing in the housing, I tried turning the axle (one that connects to tranny) with a vice grip by hand and it turns with very little resistance. When I had the tire on and tried to turn the wheel (off the ground and in neutral) it was VERY stiff and had a 180 range that was easy and the other 180 STIFF to barely turnable by hand. Again . . with the vice grips on the axle - one hand NO problem turning the axle - BUT BUT BUT . . when I come to a certain spot in the turn (same spot every time) it gets a little STIFF and if I stop the Vice Grips at that spot and then apply the same pressure to turn again it goes NO PROBLEM - SAME SPOT every time. Now the transmission is filled with gear oil and the other wheel in chocked. So I don't know if this is normal ? With the spider gears / differential of a swing axle car ?

So here is my question . . is it worth going further and taking off the whole axle . . (do I have a fulcrum plate issue if I can turn the axle with one hand w/ vice grips) or was my problem a lower axle / gear rubbing on a bearing that was not seated far enough into the housing ? When I put the lower axle in the first time I realized I put it too far into the RGB housing (was rubbing) and I actually pulled it back out slightly to JUST clear the top bearing (holds the axle - goes to tranny) My thought is to jack up the other side of bus (have not done the drivers side rgbs) and see how easy and fluid that axle spins with a pair of Vice Grips to compare the action and resistance.

Please advise me as the level of resistance I should expect from a normal swing axle setup with NO Fulcrum plate issue . . and one with a fallen Fulcrum! !

Please note in these pictures if you could tell if the axle is too far out or further out then normal. I know it's hard to tell . . but if you have any experience in this matter please chime in. I have to say I can not remember hearing anything fall back into the tranny with I was pulling the bearing and or see a difference in the length of the axle. I notice that the ring clip on the end of the axle with the second bearing in place was tight and right up against the second (smaller bearing) if the axle was pulled - would there not be MORE space between the clip and the second smaller bearing ?

[BarryL]

That upper bearing being out like that is about how far a dislodged fulcrum would make it. I'm still hoping for you to have an easier diagnosis so hang in there. Good job, btw, other than the bummer.

[dma1260]

Thanks for the kind words ! Been rough getting the mojo up to go back in and pull it apart. Toughest part was it was running great . . no noise . . no issues. Then I decided to go in and "TWEEK IT" and do the RGB's based on nothing but the advice of the shop that put the tranny in and in the process they burnt out my electronic ignition ! So . . I'm bummed . . I should have just left it alone.

Only issue is - had I not gone in to do this job - the shop put the 36mm axle nut on very loose ! ! Yes . . I go to take off the nut with a breaker bar and it comes off with little to no effort . . and this is after driving the bus a few hundred miles after I got it back from the shop . . after they put in the transmission ! ! So - if I had not checked this . . who knows what damage and danger laid ahead ! This is why I hate using other people to work on my cars . . they don't care . . and they don't check their work.

[dma1260]

If you look real close at the bottom pic in the post . . you can see the scoring done by the bottom axle / gear on the bearings ring (at the bottom of ring). As I mentioned I did not drive the Bus more then 20 yards or so (at a top speed of approx 5 mph) so I did not give it time and or speed to dig in too deep.

I really don't want to deal with opening the axle up if I don't have to . . any other tests I can do to see if Fulcrums are in place ? (without taking the tube apart) ? ! Can I pull the top bearing and move the axle side to side to see if there is play and or can I measure the exposed portion of the axle from the base of the RGB housing to know if it's protruding to far out . . . hence dropped Fulcrum plate ?

Thanks !

[dma1260]

Wait . . here is a way to test the axle / fulcrums. What if I jack the other side of the rear end up (drivers side that I did not change bearings on) leaving the passenger side rear end - off the ground. Pull the wheel off the drivers side and with both rear wheels off the ground (up on jacks with front wheels chocked) I put the bus in gear and see if I get the Clunk . . Clunk . . noise !? If I have the RGB off on the passenger side (side I changed the bearings on) with just the axle and the one bearing in . . and it does not make the sound . . then I know its the RGB box and my "rookie" bearing job that is causing the noise and NOT the Fulcrum plate(s) floating around in the tranny . . . NO ? ! or does the axle and crown gear need to be under a load to cause this sound . . ? !

Thoughts on this approach ? . . suggestions ?. . anyone else ever done it ? DO I CHOCK BOTH FRONT WHEELS ? Just in case . . ? I have 4 ton jacks . . am I living dangerously running engine with rear end jacked up - in gear - with no wheels ? on it . . Should I get the rear end as low to the ground and level as possible since the engine will be engaged in this test (I will not be under it for this test . . that's for sure.)

Thanks !

[Eric&Barb]

When removing more than one wheel, we prefer using a stack of 4x4s. Do chock both front wheels if you are going to use jacks or better yet jack stands.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!

[BarryL]

[BarryL]

[dma1260]

ok - I forgot about the Hypoid Oil in axle and tube ! yes it will be everywhere.
I will try 4th gear trick (with NO running engine) & see what happens.

I will also spin other axle (side I have not changed RGBs) and get a read for level of easy & resistance. Good thing is with a brand new tranny (less then 500 miles on it) you know the gear wear is next to nothing & both sides should be even.

Axles - Crown - and Fulcrums are not new & I have never seen their condition - so I have NO idea of the wear level on them. Old transmission had "pop out of first gear" issues from time to time but nothing more then that until the day it failed - and that was it. I did not beat on it or push it to go with a crippled transmission. Just pulled over & got it towed to shop & replaced the tranny.

Again the bus and the NEW transmission were great - no noise - no issues up until I changed the one sides RGBs bearings. I thought I would be proactive and change RGB's. Once I opened it up I noticed the top two bearings in the top Axle had serious issues (broken inner clips that hold balls in place & floating chips of metal in the gear oil that drained out of RGB. So no doubt there were issues - but not wheel stopping / tranny locking / smoke burning issues. Now I'm in to almost two weeks of this issue & no driving while I figure out a way to fix it & not have to take off whole axle.

frustrating !!!!!

[Eric&Barb]

Hang in there! This is part of paying your dues to learning how to fix and maintain your VW.

Also if the shop installed the RGB bearings and they went bad so quickly, if it was us, would just take out the transaxle and go through both RGBs, upper axles and fulcrum/crown gears for complete inspection and measuring.....
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!

[BarryL]