Everything about CB Performance Black Box

kikkegek · Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:36 am Post subject:

hi guys, just to be sure the BB wasnt causing my rough idle and hesitation during take off, I swapped distributors last night. An voila..idle is now rick steady and take of has no more hesitation. So I guess the BB is for some reason causing this. I have absolutely no idea why.

For now I wont put the BB back for a while, but sent a report to CB Perfomance...the product doesnt seem to be plug-and-play..far from that...they told me recently they are working on an update and email me when its available...they didnt have a ETA yet.

Porsche60 · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:12 am Post subject:

i believe many people are running their black boxes without an issue.

but too many situations to consider what would cause a problem.

this item is not just a auto electrical but a micro computer.
it will take some time to debug.

Dale M. · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:17 am Post subject:

kikkegek · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:02 am Post subject:

I actually did some more testing and found that its probably not the BB that is causing my rough idle and hesitation during take off. Its also there with the replacement distributor (this without the BB).

Guess I have to do some more research

clonebug · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject:

Probably just as many excuses for Megasquirt not working for some.
A marginal install will cause problems on most anything.

Most of it is probably a rats nest wiring job.
_________________

Porsche60 · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:17 pm Post subject:

tstevenson · Samba Member Joined: December 07, 2011 Posts: 14

I followed this thread since the CB Black Box was released. Back in November, I decided to buy a Black Box to upgrade my ignition. I tried to get it working over the course of 2 months. Long story short, I was having extreme kick-back, no-start issues. Both Pat and Mark at CB provided assistance, including bench testing my exact setup in their shop. They also had issues with the Pertronix Billet distributor and Ignitor II module working with the Black Box.

For full transparency, I wanted to post my experience here after trying to solve my issue with CB directly. An amazing product in theory, however I don't think it's ready for all applications as a universal upgrade.

Below is my support email to CB documenting my experience:

************
I'm having trouble starting my motor after installing the CB Black Box inline with my ignition. I've tried just about everything I can think of and I'm at my wit's end. I wanted to ask you guys before posting on theSamba for help. Hopefully you can give me a few more things to try before worst case scenario, packing it up and shipping it back.

Motor Specs:
- 2276cc type 1
- DRD L6 heads
- Pertronix Billet Flamethrower Distributor with Ignitor II module
- Pertronix Flamethrower II Coil, 45KV, 0.6ohm
- Pertronix 8mm plug wires
- NGK DPR6EA-9 resistor plugs (new)
- NGK D6EA non-resistor plugs (new)

Installation Steps:
1. Locked out Pertronix distributor advance by making aluminum plate to go across all 4 posts.
2. Tested motor running with dist locked at 10 degrees. Started up, runs fine.
3. Installed vacuum kit under carbs. Started up, runs fine.
4. Wired Black Box correctly following "Ignition Module Wiring" diagram. Distributor neg wire now goes to Black Box first, then from Black Box to neg terminal on the Coil.
5. Grounded pins 3 and pins 6 to secure chassis ground.
6. Indexed crank starting at TDC, dist rotor pointing at #1. Rotate crank to 70 BTDC. Rotate dist CCW until rotor points back at #1.
7. Software connects successfully, does not ever disconnect. Loaded dual carb timing map successfully. Can read back map at anytime. Reads pressure correctly from vacuum plates.
8. Cranking shows about 180-200RPM on software

Failure Mode:
1. Engine cranks with starter, timing light on and blinking, timing blinks at 10, 70, blank, 10, 10, somewhere in between, 10, blank, 70. Kicks back.
2. Engine cranks with starter, starter kickback
3. Engine cranks with starter, add gas down carb throats, backfire out exhaust, backfire out carbs.
4. Ultimately, engine will not start, due to very bad mistiming.

Troubleshooting Steps:
1. Put everything back to stock: Disconnected Black Box wiring, distributor wired directly to coil, indexed distributor back to TDC with rotor on #1. Starts up, runs fine. Timing light blinks immediately and consistently on 10 BTDC.
a. Eliminates distributor cap, rotor as suspect. Also, eliminates spark plugs as suspect.

2. Wire Black Box back up, index distributor and crank to 70 BTDC. Same failure mode.

3. Set timing map to a constant 10 BTDC for every cell to match crank timing which is fixed at 10 BTDC for all RPM, all MAP. Same failure mode.

4. Thought it could possibly be interference or noise affecting the distributor signal that goes to the Black Box.
a. Ran shielded cable from distributor, to Black Box. Ran shielded cable from Black Box to coil. Shield grounded on both ends. Same failure mode.
b. Disconnected alternator from starter. Also, removed fan belt so alternator no longer spins. Same failure mode.

5. Thought voltage drop from battery when cranking could affect power supply to Black Box. Batt voltage is 12.5V nominally, when cranking it drops to 10.8V-11.0V.
a. Connected Black Box to external 12V car battery as power source. Connected external battery ground to chassis ground.
b. When cranking, same failure mode, however Black Box power source never changes from a constant 12.5V.

6. Pulled wires off of plugs in motor. Hooked wires up to external spark plugs, each with their own ground in engine compartment.
a. When cranking, I see sparks on all 4 plugs. (Interestingly, spark on plug #1 takes 2 full rotations of the crank before it sparks)
b. Timing light is consistently blinking on 10 BTDC. (Again, timing light blink takes 2 full rotations of the crank to blink)
c. Timing light on crank matches timing indicated on PC while cranking.

7. Probed distributor output (input to Black Box pin10) while cranking with high impedance probe and digital oscilloscope. Waveform captured.
a. Frequency of waveform of distributor pickup pulses are very consistent with constant cranking RPM.
b. Frequency of pluses is 6.6Hz, which equates to 198RPM. (using 1Hz=30RPM). Software shows about 200RPM.
c. Timing light on crank consistently blinks on 10 BTDC. Also matches software 10 BTDC.
d. This is the attached filename: Dist_Output_to_BB_Input_Pin10_GOOD_cranking_pulses.jpg

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

e. Proves distributor pickup is working correctly, also distributor is indexed to match software timing number.
f. Keep in mind, my wires are pulled off the plugs in the head and hooked up to external spark plugs.

8. Probed the Black Box pin7 output to the Coil neg side. Waveform of coil voltage pulse captured.
a. Ignition voltage pulses from coil look good
b. This is the attached filename: BB_Output_Pin7_to_Coil_Neg_GOOD_coil_fire_cranking_pulses.jpg

c. Also, a zoomed in version of the ignition voltage pulse: BB_Output_Pin7_to_Coil_Neg_GOOD_coil_fire_cranking_pulse_ZOOM.jpg

9. Went back to probing the distributor output (input to Black Box pin10) while cranking, however this time I plugged the spark plug wires back onto the plugs in the motor. Waveform captured.
a. Frequency of distributor pickup pulses are not consistent with constant cranking RPM.
b. Frequency of pulses on waveform seem to match strange timing light blinks as 10, 70, blank, 10, 10, blank, 70, etc.
c. This is the attached filename: Dist_Output_to_BB_Input_Pin10_BAD_cranking_pulses.jpg

d. This is why I am not able to start the motor due to bad mistiming.

So, the Black Box is not able to get a constant pulse from the distributor with the spark plugs are firing in the cylinders. External grounded plugs seem to be ok, but not the plugs in the head? Very strange.

It seems as though when cranking, the Black Box can't decide when to fire the coil. This is when the timing light shows 10, then 70, then somewhere in between, then 10, then nothing, then 70, etc. Either due to the random input pulses, or corrupted output pulses? Have you ever had anyone run a Pertronix Billet distributor with your Black Box?

***************

After trying a few more things, I gave up on the CB Black Box and bought the Magnaspark Digital Distributor. Had it installed and hooked up in 30 minutes, motor started on the first crank. No problems since. Now, I'm playing with my timing maps. Excellent product, it's exactly what I was hoping the Black Box would do for my existing ignition setup.

Porsche60 · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject:

Thanks for detailed post.
It would help many people.

So, you found that the black box may not work with some distributors?
Is it the tightness or accuracy of the distributor shaft?

I've run 2 distributors with my black box.

1 - Treuhaft 010 (Mallory single point) with Pertronix Ignitor II
2 - Brazilian Bosch 009 with Pertronix Ignitor (I)

Both run ok but I feel 009 is better.

I also use Beru cap & rotor, Mallory 29217 1.4ohm coil, Flamethrower 7mm wires, NGK BPR6HIX (resistor, iridium), 0.8mm gap

j-dub · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:13 pm Post subject:

theDrew · Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject:

tstevenson, thanks for the detailed post as well.

This confirms what I was running into on startup as well. Random firing which resulted in hard starts and kick backs -- I just dont have a fancy oscilliscope to prove it!
_________________
Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25

BBMV8 · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:49 am Post subject:

Very nice write up.

When sparkplugs are put back into the engine, the engine's compression make it harder for the ignitionsystem to bridge the plug-gap, so ignition coil output will increase.
Perhaps this stronger sparksignal is somehow still interfering with the BlackBox?
Or maybe it's just the electrical groundsignal is becoming 'dirty' and causes flowcurrent issues?

Anyone ever used a different ground for the Blackbox? Perhaps grounding it to the engine only or battery?

Might be there is a need for the BlackBox housing itself to be grounded somewhere as well.

I know the Megasquirt-installation manuals are very finicky about electrical grounding.

Porsche60 · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:16 am Post subject:

tstevenson,
you tested DISTRIBUTOR -> BLACK BOX signals, right?
NOT Black Box -> Coil.

then, some how the Ignitor unit is interfered by something, I guess.
How about to run a POINT?

Guys having kick back problems,
what pick up module do you use?

BBMV8 · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:59 am Post subject:

I didn't have kickback issues in the beginning.
Only during my last 2 attempts I started having them. I try to remember if I changed anything in the system that might have an origin to this issue.

I'm using a stock Chrysler distributor with 'vr'-pickup (V8 engine).

theDrew · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:31 am Post subject:

eshenbaugh · Samba Member Joined: March 12, 2013 Posts: 20

Been running my BB since October 2013, absolutely zero issues. Draw through turbo setup with 009 and pertronix.

Pat D · Samba Member Joined: March 10, 2004 Posts: 414

theDrew · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject:

Pat, what did you find the issue to be?
_________________
Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25

theDrew · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject:

and had you guys finally been able to reproduce it?
_________________
Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25

Pat D · Samba Member Joined: March 10, 2004 Posts: 414

We found an issue when the Black Box transfers from cranking timing to the spark table. Different brands of distributors add to the problem, some don't have it at all. Replicating it has been a challenge. Then there is the noise issues that some distributors have like an MSD and our magnetic trigger magnaspark. They are very good distributors but are susceptible to noise in some situations.
_________________
Pat, Im too fast slow me downs!

theDrew · Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject:


Hello! Log in or Register \| Help \| Donate \| Buy Shirts	See all banner ads \| Advertise on TheSamba.com

Everything about CB Performance Black Box
Page: Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 28, 29, 30 Next Jump to:

Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions		Share:
		Print View

	Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions	All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time Page: Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 28, 29, 30 Next Jump to:
Page 9 of 30