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oldschool5er
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 804
Location: Ohio
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 Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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T6 skid installed in Class 5/1600 in 1975, 6 Baja races, 2 Mint races, 2 Parker races, 2 Riverside races, Barstow to Vegas multiple times. After it retired in 1983 I used it as a play car with countless hard off road miles for the next 25 years. I took it off the car for the final time in 2009. It has never had a hammer to it or grinding, it is as it was installed. To me that speaks volumes on a one time investment that has paid off. The marks left on it were from the countless rocks and boulders that flattened the stock VW pan areas under the back seat areas but rolled right under the skid with no damage. |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| oldschool5er wrote: |
T6 skid installed in Class 5/1600 in 1975, 6 Baja races, 2 Mint races, 2 Parker races, 2 Riverside races, Barstow to Vegas multiple times. After it retired in 1983 I used it as a play car with countless hard off road miles for the next 25 years. I took it off the car for the final time in 2009. It has never had a hammer to it or grinding, it is as it was installed. To me that speaks volumes on a one time investment that has paid off. The marks left on it were from the countless rocks and boulders that flattened the stock VW pan areas under the back seat areas but rolled right under the skid with no damage. |
I would love to have one of those but the time, and cost of it is to much for me right now. I'm scrabbling just to get my baja driving, I have a little less than a year to go until I am no longer able to work on it, because thats when I go off to college. Working full time and trying to save for school too. Plus during the winter its harder to work on it.
But this is definitely what I will do after college.
_________________
Multi-year baja project that seems to never end
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=498587&highlight=budget+baja |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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1st off, all of the delta wing skidplates are all the same in these photos except for the More 5475. The images for the "racing" delta wing skidplates are the same plate as used for the "Standard" plate. This is incorrect. The delta ones called "Standard" are intended to fit Bugs with heater boxes and are flat except for the flange at the edge of the plate. The delta ones called "racing" SHOULD be bent upward outboard of the bumper cage tubes as shown here
They do not need to clear heater boxes and so can allow a little more clearance under the car.
The relatively flat 3-piece one shown is actually designed to protect and clear heater boxes.
It's the same as mine:
The "racing " version should have a 2-1/2" vertical section at the inner edge of the cylinder protectors.
The small angle bent piece at the front of the skidplate is the mount bracket to attach it to the pan. This is NOT intended to attach to the front trans mount. It should bolt to the front of the skidplate angling up and forward, and lay pretty much flat against the underside of the center of the pan ahead of the torsion housing. Support the skidplate against the bottom of the yokes, bumper cage and pan. Drill bolt holes through holes in the bracket and through the pan to mount it. Use 5/16 or 8mm bolts with nylock nuts. Install nuts on the bolts through the pan through the shifter access plate. When I remove the skidplate, I remove the 2 bolts attaching the skidplate to the front bracket and leave the bracket on the pan. It's far easier that way.
The back part can be bolted to tabs made from 1" angle iron cut 1" long with a 5/16" hole in the middle of the flat leg. Weld the vertical leg to the bumper. You could also use the bent side tabs so common around offroad cars.
Regardless of where you buy them, Aircooled.net. Chirco, Moore Parts, etc... they are still the same pieces from China. That's fine, nothing wrong with any of them. The Chinese haven't messed them up.
So Cortland...Let's look at your car to decide which will work best for it.
You have offroad headers with no heater boxes, so your skidplate can raise up on the sides. It's that simple... If you're interested in installing heater boxes for winter use, then get a skidplate to clear them. Choice of 1-piece or 3-piece is up to your preference.
Over the decades, my 3 piece has cracked near the bolt holes to attach the side wings to the main body of the skidplate. I've fixed that by drilling new bolt holes. I could have welded it, but it's almost always greasy. i could clean it to weld, but...No biggy. That is the one drawback to the 3-piece. It's lighter than the 1-piece. The 1-piece has material forward of the cylinders which is not needed. I suggest cutting the plate parallel along the sides of the frame yokes with enough material to bend up a flange on the edge (optional), and across 2-1/2 -3" ahead of the cylinders and bend that 2-1/2 -3" up at a 45° angle for cylinder protection. You will be cutting a pie wedge off each side which will lighten the plate a few pounds.
The left tube on your EMPI single tube bumper appears to be bent outward at the front end  I would say that your lower mounts are probably out of alignment. I suggest straightening those tubes so they are parallel, adjust the mount brackets to fit, then weld them to the steel motor mount. This will make them stay straight and make it EZ to re-install the bumper when it's taken off to work on the engine. it looks like your bumper is drooping. This can be fixed by drilling new bolt holes for pinning the bumper to the mount brackets. Try to make sure the skidplate is mounted so that it clears the bottom of the engine case by 1.5" or so. It does no good to have a skidplate if it's right up against the engine so a rock hits the engine too.
Then your fan shroud heater outlets are open, which lets cooling air out instead of cooling the engine. This is dangerous to the engine.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| 1st off, all of the delta wing skidplates are all the same in these photos except for the More 5475. The images for the "racing" delta wing skidplates are the same plate as used for the "Standard" plate. This is incorrect. The delta ones called "Standard" are intended to fit Bugs with heater boxes and are flat except for the flange at the edge of the plate. The delta ones called "racing" SHOULD be bent upward outboard of the bumper cage tubes as shown here |
I really wished these places had better pictures and a detailed description. Thank you for clearing this up, I would have gotten a big surprise had I went with the "racing" one. I just assumed it was a thicker gauge metal and thats why it was more expensive.
| dustymojave wrote: |
| The back part can be bolted to tabs made from 1" angle iron cut 1" long with a 5/16" hole in the middle of the flat leg. Weld the vertical leg to the bumper. You could also use the bent side tabs so common around offroad cars. |
Is it possible to just drill a hole through the center of the engine tube bumper and rune a long bolt through the tube and the skid plate? My bumper is the one where at all 4 points has a separate mount to them. The bumper is 12-13 gauge metal. Nice and powder coated so if I don't have to weld that would be nice but if I have to I have to.
| dustymojave wrote: |
Regardless of where you buy them, Aircooled.net. Chirco, Moore Parts, etc... they are still the same pieces from China. That's fine, nothing wrong with any of them. The Chinese haven't messed them up.
You have offroad headers with no heater boxes, so your skidplate can raise up on the sides. It's that simple... If you're interested in installing heater boxes for winter use, then get a skidplate to clear them. Choice of 1-piece or 3-piece is up to your preference.
Over the decades, my 3 piece has cracked near the bolt holes to attach the side wings to the main body of the skidplate. I've fixed that by drilling new bolt holes. I could have welded it, but it's almost always greasy. i could clean it to weld, but...No biggy. That is the one drawback to the 3-piece. It's lighter than the 1-piece. The 1-piece has material forward of the cylinders which is not needed. I suggest cutting the plate parallel along the sides of the frame yokes with enough material to bend up a flange on the edge (optional), and across 2-1/2 -3" ahead of the cylinders and bend that 2-1/2 -3" up at a 45° angle for cylinder protection. You will be cutting a pie wedge off each side which will lighten the plate a few pounds.
The left tube on your EMPI single tube bumper appears to be bent outward at the front end Question I would say that your lower mounts are probably out of alignment. I suggest straightening those tubes so they are parallel, adjust the mount brackets to fit, then weld them to the steel motor mount. This will make them stay straight and make it EZ to re-install the bumper when it's taken off to work on the engine. it looks like your bumper is drooping. This can be fixed by drilling new bolt holes for pinning the bumper to the mount brackets. Try to make sure the skidplate is mounted so that it clears the bottom of the engine case by 1.5" or so. It does no good to have a skidplate if it's right up against the engine so a rock hits the engine too. |
I do want to keep my option open with regards to the heater boxes, not sure yet if I will add them or not. So that narrows it down.
Is the "standard" one from chirco and moore the same as the "HD w/ use of heater boxes" from air-cooled.net?
The biggest thing I worry about is the thickness of these plates, so I want to try to get the thickest one they have.
I do like the idea of the 3 piece and being able to take off the 2 small pieces for better access without having to take the whole thing off.
_________________
Multi-year baja project that seems to never end
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=498587&highlight=budget+baja |
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Dusty, with respect to everything you wrote;
my best interst is to make my own and/or have my reputable shop design one for me. neato.
_________________
Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian wrote: |
Dusty, with respect to everything you wrote;
my best interst is to make my own and/or have my reputable shop design one for me. neato. |
Fab away Jose!
Most of the readers/posters on TOS are not really up to fabricating their own proper skidplate. And having a shop custom fab one is NOT inexpensive. I generally recommend just buying a manufactured one like we discuss above even though I could charge a customer to fab a nice aluminum one. Many with Baja Bugs like Cortland's are more inclined to just run without rather than pay the big $$$ for a custom one. I have no issue with the thickness of my skidplate and the new ones are the same thickness Cortland. You're not racing the King of The Hammers anyway, are ya?
And most "professional" fabricators will fab one out of thick a$$ 5052 or 3003 aluminum without heat treat, instead of 6061 T-0 and then heat treat to T-6. So it will just bend over each and every rock it encounters. Then people complain about it bending.
These days, many also build skidplates so they fit right up against the bottom of the case. I see it on racers I inspect ALL the time. Then they think they need rear motor mounts because their case is breaking on the top where the roof meets the flywheel bulkhead because the engine has been pushed up from below. 
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Your right about how close many of the pre-fabed skid plates are to the case. I'm surprised people don't put them on, take a look, and then send them back for a refund. I also dislike how most of them attach to the back of the engine. Even with aluminum cases, they can crack the case when hitting something. Doesn't even have to hit very hard. It doesn't take much to brake a case like that.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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No plan for KOH, I just want a bullet proof car. So you're saying I should have t6? I'm open to any and all suggestions.
_________________
Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah...If you make your own skidplate out of aluminum, DEFINITELY make it out of 6061!!!! If you need to bend it, it can be annealed with a gas torch set real fat to lay the black soot on the surface, then heat gently until the soot is burned off. it should be soft then and workable. After you're done with it, take it to have it re-heat treated to T6. Doing that aint cheap though. And you can't heat treat 5052, 2024 or 3003. Diamond plate is like 6061 T6. Very tough and springy. Use 1/8" to 3/16" thick aluminum.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Look at them tires. I get the holes in the rear, by why the pressed ribs? structure?
_________________
Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:00 am Post subject: |
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The ribs give it a lot of extra strength because it places more material farther out from center. Much stronger than a flat piece of sheet metal.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Because it's made of material thin enough to be stamped. It doesn't need to stop armor piercing artillery, just help the car slide over obstacles without snagging.
Yes, they ARE nice skidplates.
There is NO problem with prefabbed skidplates fitting close to the engine case 
The problem is with the knuckleheads who MOUNT the skidplates
The trick is...When you mount the skidplate...
YA GOTTA BE SMARTER THAN THE PLATE!!!
And if you think there is a problem with mounting the plate to the engine case...Then you have to go back and read what I wrote above Van.
NEVER MOUNT A SKIDPLATE TO THE ENGINE CASE!
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Richard, I haven't personally seen the failures you speak of in the area that bolts up to the transmission, but I have seen a couple cases crack where the dumb over the counter skid plates bolt to the engine. Snapped the boss clean off the case. And that was only from a light brush with the ground at the sand dunes here in Michigan. Doesn't take much of a hit to break those little M8 bolts free of the case.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:48 am Post subject: |
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Only thing I would mount to the case are those little deflectors VW designed.
_________________
Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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oldschool5er
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 804
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
This might interest you guys. Factory skid plate on a WWII era kubelwagen. Looks like vw knew how to make a proper skid
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You can still buy this here www.kdf.cz/web%20KDF_EN/kat82.htm
around $260 USD Cat#243 |
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Brian
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