| Author |
Message |
tfhagar
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Seattle
|
 Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: 1988 Vanagon electrical failure |
 |
|
I have a 1988 manaul. We are on a 21 day road trip and today we had a assortment of electrical failures. Anyone have anythoughts on where to start looking? I checked fuses and ground blocks. going to start poking around with my volt meter and see if I can find the issue but if there are any thoughts on this one great.
what does not work
wipers front and back
head lights, installed dual relays from gowesty. I have power to the high beam realy but non to head light.
heater blower
radio
power mirrors
rear window defrost
what is working
engine starts and runs fine, alternator charging fine.
side marker lights front
tail lights
temp and fuel guages
4 way flashers
horn
turn signals
clock
12 volt outlet
interior lighting |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Those symptoms add up to a bad ignition switch. The ignition switch actually has 4 different switches inside and 1 usually goes bad while the other 3 still work for a while. That is why you can still start and drive. It is an inexpensive part and you can use a couple screwdrivers to hook it up and keep moving. You don't have to fully install it in order to use it so that I what I suggest doing at this time.
All of the things you say don't work are on the same internal switch of the 4 switches.
The switch is common to many other VWs so that makes it cheaper and easier to find one.
Don't buy the part that takes the key, that is not the switch part. The switch goes under the part that takes the key.
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_428_145/ignition-switch-electrical-portion.html
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tfhagar
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mark,
Thanks for that. I have been chasing my tail with this one. We are in a small town before Bryce Canyon, Utah. Would it be ok to pull the wire off the ignition switch that is on the bad side and run a power wire to it with a toggle switch to apply power? and is it + or - power going thru it? Just till we get somewhere where I can try to get this part or order it in ?
I have wire and toggle.
Thanks for the help.
Joe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you put +12 power to the black/yellow wire of the ignition switch that should power up all those things you were missing.
The red wire to the switch is constant battery +12 with no fuse.
edit: I mentioned the lack of a fuse to warn you. If I was going to jumper power to the yellow/black I would put a fuse in the jumper. There shouldn't be much power going through the jumper wire if your headlight relays were correctly installed but I would be cautious since something appears to have burned out that part of the ignition switch. A 10 amp fuse should be fine. If it blows when the headlights are on then maybe something isn't right about the relay install. If you can get to a flaps with an inline fuse holder you could use that all by itself to connect the red wire to the black/yellow and use the fuse as your "switch" by plugging it in when you need it and taking it out when you stop.
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1vw4x4
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2005
Posts: 472
Location: Pgh. PA
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'll second what mark said. The ignition switch controls an aux. power
relay, that turns off when you are trying to start the engine. Its a way of
unloading power so the starter get as much power as it can on start up. If the ignition sw. does not fix this, something else in that circuit failed.
You can just unplug the ignition sw. plug, and plug in the new sw. without installing it to test things. No even a 5 minute job. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatvwbusguy
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007
Posts: 1712
Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I always carry a couple extra new "tested good" ignition switches in the van. They are small and inexpensive, so there is little downside to keeping a couple on hand. I have never needed one for myself, since I minimize the load on the ignition switch with relays, but I have bailed several folks out with the part they needed when it would have been impossible to get.
A few summers back after a Phish show at Mansfield, MA a guy and his family had the dreaded dead ignition switch issue and no tools or spare parts onboard. A few minutes to diagnose good battery voltage and solid connection at the starter led me to the ignition switch. Simply pulling the electrical portion off the connector and popping the new switch on got the van running and the family on the road to the next show with huge smiles on their faces.
I have seen him at a few various shows since then and he always gives me a hi-five and buys me the drink of my choice. He also said he keeps a couple extras in the glove box now so he can hopefully "part it forward" some day.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It fails often enough and is such a low cost but vital part that every van should have a spare on board IMHO.
It is good to have even just to quickly plug in as a test when something is acting up, like starter not cranking, or cranking but engine not starting, or engine cutting out, whatever.
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tfhagar
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| This is our first road trip with the van. brought few spares, fuel pump,coil, plug, cap, rotor, ect. will be ordering two of these. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhaavers
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7757
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tfhagar wrote: |
| ...will be ordering two ... |
Remember to TEST THEM - or only assume one is good...(lotsa Chinese parts out there)... 
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So let me hijack this thread and say something similar just happened to me. 87 Wolfsburg Westy with air conditioning. No headlights. But headlights come on when I pull the high beam stalk and hold it. And, here's the weird part, the non- functioning air conditioner blower comes on too?
Now is this something else, or does the high beam action get power from somewhere other than the black and yellow wire?
Funny thing, I just replaced that switch about 1000 miles ago. It seems I have a spare. Changing it out temporarily would be easy.
Or is there another big red feed wire corroded off somewhere.
Over the last 5 years, I have found 3 wires so far that the terminals just corroded off. The car sat for about 4 years with a bad motor and I think it was damp there.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
looking at '87 main diagram, I see 30 (B+) power from B23 at fuse box goes along a R/Y wire to 30 of high beam switch. As they should, (and as I'm sure you know), the headlights should flash.
But the dash fan comes on when you flash hi beams?
If you remove S12 fuse, does fan still operate, hi beams flashed on?
Power to S12 appears to come from X buss.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
looking at '87 main diagram, I see 30 (B+) power from B23 at fuse box goes along a R/Y wire to 30 of high beam switch. As they should, (and as I'm sure you know), the headlights should flash.
But the dash fan comes on when you flash hi beams?
If you remove S12 fuse, does fan still operate, hi beams flashed on?
Power to S12 appears to come from X buss.
Neil. |
Not the dash fan, but the A/C blower fan. In back This is a westy and it (they) are in a wood box in back but for all I know similar to the one in the plastic box in a GL/ Carat.
Seems to me these MIGHT power from a big red wire directly off the alternator stud?
Also, I need to continue to hold the stalk toward me to keep the bright lites on,
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
.... further to this, given mention of ign. switches and the like in this thread, I'd try removing the ign. switch, then load reduction relay, and see which one stops the issue. (if they even do)
I'm not seeing how it would happen, but if I'm not misunderstanding, power might be getting from 30 buss to X buss to fan, when it shouldn't?
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
just saw your post Al.
AC fan is at back. Right. Sorry. (S12 also feeds a "fresh air fan" so I thought of fan at dash)
Al wrote: Also, I need to continue to hold the stalk toward me to keep the bright lites on,
That's normal and ok. [edit: if headlights switched off, key turned to ign. off]
Looking at P.97.140 I see that the X buss power goes to fuse S12. Power from there most likely feeds the fan you refer to.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmranger
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 69doublecab wrote: |
| But headlights come on when I pull the high beam stalk and hold it. And, here's the weird part, the non- functioning air conditioner blower comes on too? |
Pulling and holding the high beam switch is an old trick that allows power to backfeed to tons of weird places in the vanagon circuits. As an example, it's a good trick to know when you need to close power windows in a hurry and the key isn't around.
So any "weird behavior" that happens while the stalk is pulled is likely, well, normal, and not really worth investigating.
Back to your original issue: I'd try a new ignition switch before investigating anything else. Yes, some don't last long, especially if you don't have headlight relays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jmranger wrote: |
| 69doublecab wrote: |
| But headlights come on when I pull the high beam stalk and hold it. And, here's the weird part, the non- functioning air conditioner blower comes on too? |
Pulling and holding the high beam switch is an old trick that allows power to backfeed to tons of weird places in the vanagon circuits. As an example, it's a good trick to know when you need to close power windows in a hurry and the key isn't around.
So any "weird behavior" that happens while the stalk is pulled is likely, well, normal, and not really worth investigating.
Back to your original issue: I'd try a new ignition switch before investigating anything else. Yes, some don't last long, especially if you don't have headlight relays. |
That's good to know. I'll try my spare switch just as soon as I find it. I could just jumper the black/ yellow ? wire. Where does it land?
I have owned 4 2.1 Vanagons driving one constantly for 25 years. And this is the first Ignition switch failure. Or the first 2? I think something else must be heating it up? Fuel pump power go thru it or with a relay?
God I hate the schematics they use in the Bentley. I guess once one gets used to the symbols for all the connectors and other unscrutable icons, they might make sense. Just not for me.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7924
Location: Arizona
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jmranger wrote: |
Pulling and holding the high beam switch is an old trick that allows power to backfeed to tons of weird places in the vanagon circuits.....
So any "weird behavior" that happens while the stalk is pulled is likely, well, normal, and not really worth investigating.
|
thanks for that tip link and explanation. I figured 30 power was back feeding through to the X buss but couldn't "see" it; I assumed headlight switches were open as per diagram.
So reading that thread, and viewing diagrams, if head light switch on and one pulls back on hi beam stalk:
hi beam switch connects contact 30 to 56 which then back feeds out 56 to headlight contact 56. Since headlight switches are closed, this back fed power internally connects to headlight X contact then back out to switch side of load reduction relay? (enabling relay to energize X buss)
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, a new switch did NOT fix it. Nor did manually jumping the X terminal. So the problem must be elsewhere. Where to look. I guess try to follow the current track and see what looks testable or suspect?
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7924
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 69doublecab wrote: |
So let me hijack this thread and say something similar just happened to me. 87 Wolfsburg Westy with air conditioning. No headlights. But headlights come on when I pull the high beam stalk and hold it. And, here's the weird part, the non- functioning air conditioner blower comes on too?
Now is this something else, or does the high beam action get power from somewhere other than the black and yellow wire? |
So, the problem with this van is that the headlights don't work unless you pull the hi-beam stalk back? The headlights use four fuses: 9, 10, 21, & 22. Those are the first things to check, if you haven't already. The second thing to check is the grounds for the headlights.
Headlight power (in stock form) is fed through the headlight switch via the load reduction relay, ignition switch, and dimmer/hi-beam switch.
Also, while the following was posted in a Cabriolet forum, it applies to Vanagons too:
| tolusina wrote: |
The "X" Circuit from the Ignition Switch.
What is "X"?
"X" is the terminal of the ignition switch that's working while your car is starting and the headlights, wipers and HVAC fan go off.
Here's a pic, hopefully it'll explain most all of the circuit.
Understanding that circuit saves a whole lot of puzzlement if when there's a failure of headlights, wipers and HVAC fan in various combinations.
1st, lets follow the power flow through the schematic on a car with all systems good.
Battery power is available to BOTH the ignition switch AND the switched circuit of the load reduction relay.
Switch the ignition to the RUN position and power flows through the black/yellow wire activating the load reduction relay solenoid coil, making power available to the wipers, HVAC and rear defogger. At the same time, power is also switched directly to the headlight switch, which can then be switched to the High/Low beam dimmer switch.
It is worth mentioning the parking/running lights at this point, they are on a completely separate circuit from the ignition switch and the "X" circuit, you've probably noticed that the parking/running lights work whether the key is switched on or not. Electrically, the parking/running lights have absolutely nothing in common with the headlight circuit even though the headlights and the parking/running lights are operated by the very same switch.
There are several possible failure modes through the "X" circuit that are generally easy to diagnose fairly accurately just by the symptoms present.
If everything downstream of "X" on the ignition switch, that is headlights, HVAC fan, wipers and rear defogger are all inoperative, it is reasonable to assume that "X" on the ignition switch itself has failed.
There are several possible ways to test for this condition. The most conclusive way to test is to unplug the ignition switch and bridge battery power from the red battery power wire to the black/yellow "X" terminal wire, then check to see if all the downstream components are operative.
Alternately, one could test for power at terminal 86 of the load reduction relay socket with the key switched on and the relay removed.
One could also bridge the terminal 30 to the terminal 86 connectors at the load reduction relay socket with the relay removed and then check and see if the headlights work. Next bridge from terminal 30 to terminal 87 and see if the HVAC fan, wipers and rear defogger work.
If the headlights work but the HVAC fan, wipers and rear defogger are inoperative, the load reduction relay itself is usually at fault. Put one hand on the load reduction relay and switch on the key, the relay should be felt to click on and then click off as a key is switched off. Bridging terminal 30 to terminal 87 will also verify that most of the rest of the circuit is good. Use a multimeter or a test light across terminals 85 and 86, there should be power showing whenever the key is in the wrong position. Don't confuse relay clicks from the fuel pump, glow plug or DigiFant power supply relay(s) for load reduction relay clicks.
If the headlights do not work but the HVAC fan, wipers and rear defogger work, the problem is most likely in either the headlight switch or the high/low beam dimmer switch.
It is also possible for the "X" terminal contacts in the ignition switch to be burned in such a way that adequate current will be available to operate the load reduction relay but adequate current to operate the headlights cannot flow. If this condition were present, I would expect the HVAC fan, wipers and rear defogger to operate normally, but they would probably switch off as the headlights were switched on.
...
The quirk I forgot to include. It's curiously interesting, knowing about it can aid in quickly diagnosing issues with these circuits.
Key in your pocket, switch on the headlights, wipers and HVAC fan. None should run, park lamps should be on.
Now pull and hold the headlight high/low beam switch on the turn signal stalk. Nothing happens? Release and pull it again. Every other pull of the high/low switch with the other switches on as described should result in the wipers and HVAC fan running as long as the high/low switch is held.
Headlights should come on with every pull and hold, regardless if the other switches are on or not, headlights will be high beam only.
|
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
