Crankshaft play question

[Gringo Loco Volador]

Is there a difference in the crankshaft end play with the pulley removed on a 1600 dual port engine? I bought this engine and it was suppose to have been rebuilt. When I removed the old crank pulley I noted that the shaft got really loose, and when I tightened up the new aluminum pulley it got tight again. However, the new pulley also rubs the side of the case where it goes around the shaft. It has made little shavings and seems to be cutting threads into it. I have not fired off the engine yet, until I get some feedback on this issue.

Thank you for your time.[/b]

[flyboy161]

Unfortunately this is a problem I have see with aluminum pulleys before. I have always checked end play once I install the flywheel, with and without the pulley installed. The pulley fits on a tapered crankshaft and should never touch the number 4 bearing or any part of the case. If it does the motor will seize in short order or you'll trash the case as well.

I assume you have the motor out of the car and the flywheel is installed and torqued? The thrust bearing is the number 1 bearing (up front) and end play can be adjusted there with different thickness shims placed between the flywheel and the crankshaft.
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[Max Welton]

[Spezialist]

[williamM]

Ran into this big time with sand seals and the lack of the big spacer washer behind the pulley- They can really ruin your day. Set the end play with out the pulley. Then instal the pulley and see if it rubs or interferes with the end play.

Use the fat spacer if there is any doubt.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[williamM]

dbl post
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[57BLITZ]

[flyboy161]

I'd take the pulley off, go with a stocker. They're just better. Also, I'd check the end play for real with the pulley off.

Range is .003"-.005" with .006" being the wear limit.

If the flywheel is properly torqued you should not exceed .006". If you do overhaul the motor while you still can. Cases are getting harder to come by.
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[Gringo Loco Volador]

Thank you all for the replies. It is as I suspected. I guess I got taken on this deal, but now I have to deal with it. The whole story is that I bought someone's VW trike project. It was represented as the engine on it had been rebuilt with oversize pistons, a cam, etc. and then it sat in a barn for over 4 years as the original builder was killed in a bike crash.

I believe the part about it being in a barn for years, but not about the rebuild. I have built the trike complete now except for making the electrical connections between the components.

It is what it is, so now I have to deal with it. Tomorrow I am going to pull the aluminum pulley back off and measure the best that I can what the end play and up/down movement really is. It is a lot more than any .006" though. I think it will be more like in the 1/8"-1/4" range. Then I want to put the original pulley back on and see what it feels like.

I am not an engine mechanic, but I am not rich either, and will have to come up with an affordable solution. Maybe a long block? If it is as bad as I suspect, I think that the case may be too far gone too. The engine is still in the vehicle as it was when I got it. I have never fired it up as nothing was connected on it when I got it.

Thanks again!
Steve

[flyboy161]

Sorry to hear that Steve. While it's possible to measure end play off the crank pulley, the easiest and best way by far is to pull the motor and measure it at the flywheel.

If you have up and down movement at the pulley, that doesn't sound to good. But you won't know until you try. You can pick up a decent long block for around 1300 plus a 300 core.

Pick up a copy of the How to keep your Volkswagen alive, for the Compleat Idiot. It is a very good maintenance book that reads like a novel. And I'll tell you there is enough sage advice on this forum to talk you through it, step by step. The engine overhaul chapter in the book is the best I've ever seen. The VW motor is probably one of the simplest and most forgiving motors to work on and look at the bright side; just imagine how well you will know that trike when you're done.
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[johnnypan]

Volkswagen engines wear,its a fact...when new the end play is in spec (.004 or so) as the engine wears the endplay increases..an 1/8th inch ,.250,will run a long time,Ive seen engines driven daily at 3/16ths..course its not ideal,so heres what I would do..get it running with a stock pulley and ride it..if you don't like it sell it..if you do,ride it some and save some dough for an engine build...pitch that aluminum pulley

[Max Welton]

Steve, it might help if we knew approximately where you are located. "USA" is a big place. Someone in the area could probably help.

Max
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1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836

[Gringo Loco Volador]

I am in far western Kentucky in the little city of Benton, 42025

[Northof49]

Is there a way to tell if the wear is the thrust bearing, or that it's moving in the case?
_________________
1958 Karmann Ghia owner

[flyboy161]

Once the flywheel and front main seal are removed, maybe. But realistically it requires splitting the case and putting the bearing in it spot and then wiggle. If you have play there, the case needs to be align bored.

The crankshaft will move front to rear quite a bit without the flywheel installed. But once shimmed properly .003-.005 with .006 as the limit. I always rebuilt my cases at .006. Anything over that those main bearings will start singing their death song, and it's deep.

Point here is this, my opinion is you can run an engine until it self destructs or you can catch it early and get many trouble free miles out of it. I can split a case in a couple of hours. A few days for the machine shop and have it together and running in a day. I'd rather do that then wait for it to so utterly beat the thrust bearing around until there is no saving it. It means a little work now and a lot less bread out of my pocket down the road.

$600 or $1600 because your case won't be worth the core charge if it's beat up like that.

And to the original poster, I have run across loose gland nuts that will make you think your engine is shot. Tighten the gland nut, check end play and it's golden!
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[Gringo Loco Volador]

OK Fellows,

I tok that SCAT billet aluminum pilley off this morning. It was rubbing on the case around the stub of the pulley that goes over the shaft. It now has threads cut into it from the case, where it was smooth before installation. The rubbing was keeping the shaft from moving.

I then reinstalled the original pulley and torqued it down. There is no rubbing again and there is plenty of end play now. Unfortunately the end play is still excessive according to the book. I do not have a dial indicator, but I used a vernier caliper where I could get a consistent reading within a couple of thousands.

Before I was just guessing based on memory from when I changed the pulleys and how it felt. I knew it was not normal then and my mind exaggerated a little. Women say that we men tend to exaggerate when it comes to length. LOL

In reality the end play at the pulley is approximately, .040" +- .005". That sounds a lot better than nearly .125" to me. What do you guys think? Will it do harm to the engine to run it like this for a little while? If I can run it like this, I would like to finish up the wiring and get it going, then drive it to someplace where I can get some experienced hands on it.

Thanks!
Steve

[flyboy161]

your call, your trike. It wont self destruct that quickly, but .040 is still a lot. I'd opt for option 2, get it running and take it to some experienced help.
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[Spezialist]

Depending on where the excess play is coming from is a factor for your reliability. If the thrust bearing is walking in the case it's going to get worse until it blows. If its an incorrect endplay set-up then its not as bad, but still livable because of the low torque needed by a trike ( power to weight transfer).
And finally if its the glandnut giving the bad reading you're farked, because its gotta come out.

If it was mine, I would run it and check everything else out about the trike to see if you actually like riding it.
Those home built vw powered trikes have a huge variability on perfotmance as a riding and running vehicle.
In other words run it and see if even putting more money into it is even somthing that would entertain you.
I have a friend who had one that went down the road sideways and popped a wheelie every time he goosed it at any speed. Kinda sketchy in my book.
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[Volks Wagen]

Pull the motor and check/set endplay rather than wondering. Should be straightforward given nothings wired up and the engine is hanging out the arse of a trike.
_________________
1973 1303 with AB-motor - sporadic
reconstruction as time permits, 1986 ex-Bundeswehr Doka - on the road again.

I'm definitely, probably, the worlds greatest lover.

Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.

[andrewvwclassic]

I have an empi alu degree pulley fits nice. the best thing to do would be rebuilding the block. split the case and see what is out of spec. dont let a bad part like a pulley ruin your experience. besides its probably not the pulley but the up and down play you were talking about. You can sometimes get rid of that with new main bearings. if you crankshaft is worn to in between the cut on the new mains you can get away without having the crank machined. my crank was within spec after an .010 undersized main switch with the natural wear of the crank but I was lucky to catch it and get a nice fitment with the new mains. the pulley is a close fitment to the sides of the case so up and down movement might make it scrape, if its a bad part. it should not cost that mjuch to rebuild the block but remember the cost of tools! I have spent over $2000 on tools and I barely have all that I need for all the work. still dont have a big boy socket set just the pulley and flywheel socket. Good luck sorry about the burn.