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009 Distributor Timing
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Bohdan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject: 009 Distributor Timing Reply with quote

Greetings Gents. All the literature I have read says the 28-32 BTDC timing. I have done that. However, I always had a rough idle. So rough the car vibrates. Since I took as gospel that the method is correct, I have never questioned it till now. But.... I played with it and miraculously the car idles so much smoother. But it is an aftermarket crankshaft pulley. I have revved it up a bit and appears to be smooth. My marks are way way off. Anybody had issues with the mark being incorrect on a pulley? by chance? Mighty obliged
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen cheap aftermarket degrees pulleys off.

Remove the pulley bolt and the woodruff key should be at 90* ATDC or at 9:00 if the crank is at TDC.
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IHC
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope your 28 degrees are at full advance not idle.At idle it should be 7.5 before.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IHC wrote:
Hope your 28 degrees are at full advance not idle.At idle it should be 7.5 before.

7.5 is approximate at idle. I've seen brand new 009's off the shelf being tested and they varied from 7 - 10 degrees at an idle when the full advance is set at 30 degrees.
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citroen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is some more things to confuse you here are different pulleys on VW engines
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
this one has tdc and 5 degrees after tdc
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
this one has tdc and 7 degrees before tdc
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
this one has 7 and 10 degrees before tdc
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
this one has tdc only
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
this aftermarket pulley is off about 3 degrees
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andk5591
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So - what does it say your timing is at idle AND what carb(s) and do you have it/them adjusted properly at idle? And what RPM are you trying to idle at? Your issue may nothing to do with the distributor.
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citroen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is also the specs on the thing
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Bohdan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings again. Is that to say I can time it at 7.5 at idle or 30 at 3000 rpm? I did the 30 at 3000 rpm. Runs much better at idle. It isn't 7.5 though. It's closer to 40. Hence maybe the marks are off . anybody time to the ear? I have a single 40idf. Thanks for your help
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wbrown45
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to time it at full advance. Are you sure it is "increasing" to 40 degrees at an idle?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What side of TDC are you using to time it? you should be on the right side. Idle timing is a lower number than max advance. You are starting to scare me with an idle of 40 degrees. and NO dont time by ear.
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Bohdan
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the crank, bdtc is on the right. I guess the theory is that at max advance timing is the most accurate and should automatically go to 7.5 at idle. If it idles rough at idle would that in some form indicate a problem with my distributor? It crank is a high end part and doubt that the marks are off on it
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bohdan wrote:
Looking at the crank, bdtc is on the right. I guess the theory is that at max advance timing is the most accurate and should automatically go to 7.5 at idle. If it idles rough at idle would that in some form indicate a problem with my distributor? It crank is a high end part and doubt that the marks are off on it

It isn't a theory, a centrifugal advance distributor needs to be timed at full advance. As I stated before, and there are plenty of other people's experiences that correspond to mine, the idle degrees will vary between distributors. Even a couple of degrees can make your engine perform at its best, or burn it up!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK - recapping all of this - run the RPMS up to about 3000. Adjust timing to be 30 degrees (typical range is 28 to 32). When you let the engine idle, it should come down to about 7 to 10 degrees. If that is correct, then start looking elsewhere, because if the timing is stable and not jumping around at idle, it should sit there and run smooth all day. *see note below

Your idle RPM should be around 900ish - some like 850, some like higher. IF you have a rough idle, first thing I would do wour be check for vacuum leaks. THEN I would find the proper preocedures for adjusting your idel mix on your carb. This is all assuming that the valves have been set, you have good points (dwell sett correctly), plugs condensor, cap and plug wires.

Timing jumping around at idle - you could have issues with excessive vertical play with the distributor - just worked on a car where it moved around by 10 degrees when idling.
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Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: shooting for 3000rpm Reply with quote

I (at the time I did my tuneup) did a few test adjustments and drives and I went for 10btc at idle and with the 009 dizzy, it's running pretty good. That was factoring in the 20-22 degrees it's supposed to advance when at 3k rpm.

I had tried 5, 7, 10, 12 btc at idle, and
YOU'LL know if you have it advanced too much, it'll sound like a MG30 at full rpm!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: shooting for 3000rpm Reply with quote

doublecanister wrote:
That was factoring in the 20-22 degrees it's supposed to advance when at 3k rpm.

You're ASSuming, i've tested a number of "009" and found everything from 14* to 44*.

"009" is now a generic term for mechanical only advance.
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Bohdan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the help. I guess I better go stare at my engine a bit longer and see what is up.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: so to be correct.... Reply with quote

Hey Guys,

So, just to be clear, then is this the proper procedure for adjusting timing with the 009 mechanical advance distributor like andk5591 stated?
Don't want Glenn saying we ASSumed anything.
andk5591 wrote:

OK - recapping all of this - run the RPMS up to about 3000. Adjust timing to be 30 degrees (typical range is 28 to 32). When you let the engine idle, it should come down to about 7 to 10 degrees. If that is correct, then start looking elsewhere, because if the timing is stable and not jumping around at idle, it should sit there and run smooth all day. *see note below

Your idle RPM should be around 900ish - some like 850, some like higher. IF you have a rough idle, first thing I would do wour be check for vacuum leaks. THEN I would find the proper preocedures for adjusting your idel mix on your carb. This is all assuming that the valves have been set, you have good points (dwell sett correctly), plugs condensor, cap and plug wires.

Timing jumping around at idle - you could have issues with excessive vertical play with the distributor - just worked on a car where it moved around by 10 degrees when idling.


Thanks andk5591 for providing the info!
Applause
If this is correct for sure, I'm putting it in my notes for future ref.

T
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CLXXXI
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good advice, but before doing any timing on an aircooled VW you must ignore the pulley marks (standard or aftermarket) & make your own accurate TDC mark, it's the only way to know it's correct, how else can you know for sure with so many changes over the years with standard pulleys marked differently swapped between engines that have multiple marks, & so many dodgy aftermarket pulleys?

Make, beg, borrow* something to thread in the plug hole that will contact the piston & stop it before TDC, thread it into number one cylinder & turn the engine by hand on the crank pulley nut in one direction till it contacts/stops the piston & mark that on your pulley, turn it the opposite direction till it stops the piston again, mark that on the pulley, half way between those two marks is an very accurate TDC for that engine pulley combination. Use this with a timing light that can be advanced, or mark full advance degrees on your pulley using that as TDC.

Only then can you time the engine correctly & sleep at night. Wink

*I use an old spark plug with a bit of small bore copper pipe jammed in it cut to length so it's only a few degrees off TDC..
009 needs timing at full advance as said already.
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Bohdan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All great info. It is obvious that I may be wrong and it runs better otherwise. I guess I need a little bit more staring. Thanks for the advice.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CLXXXI wrote:
All good advice, but before doing any timing on an aircooled VW you must ignore the pulley marks (standard or aftermarket) & make your own accurate TDC mark, it's the only way to know it's correct, how else can you know for sure with so many changes over the years with standard pulleys marked differently swapped between engines that have multiple marks, & so many dodgy aftermarket pulleys?

Make, beg, borrow* something to thread in the plug hole that will contact the piston & stop it before TDC, thread it into number one cylinder & turn the engine by hand on the crank pulley nut in one direction till it contacts/stops the piston & mark that on your pulley, turn it the opposite direction till it stops the piston again, mark that on the pulley, half way between those two marks is an very accurate TDC for that engine pulley combination. Use this with a timing light that can be advanced, or mark full advance degrees on your pulley using that as TDC.

Only then can you time the engine correctly & sleep at night. Wink

*I use an old spark plug with a bit of small bore copper pipe jammed in it cut to length so it's only a few degrees off TDC..
009 needs timing at full advance as said already.

I have never, ever seen a stock OE pulley have an incorrect TDC mark. As for aftermarket degree pulleys, i've only used Berg.

The woodruff key should be @ 90* ATDC or at 9:00 when TDC is at 12:00.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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