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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:50 am Post subject: please help newby with carb questions. |
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Problem is that I got a new client because nobody could hep himwith carbs here....(99% of estonian cars are going with efi and its really hard to find some oldscool guy who knowssomething about carbs)
So I know nothing about carbs....dont know eaven how many jets are in there and where do they locate. I dont know how straight should be AFR curve with carbs (with efi Im able to keep it in 0.2AFR with no problem with better ecus)
Car Idles, runs, pulls hard.
I have no idea whats in the engine but last owner told that it should be 100hp 1600 You can go sideways with second gear with no problem...maybe it really has so much power.
Problem is that it smells really rich, smokes black and not easy to drive behind it closer than 100 meters. When I push pedal gently it doesn't start rising RPMs instantly but when i push it quicker and more it revvs like in dreams.
I started looking problems of air fuel ratio (Owner told me that advance is checked as valves)
Installed wideband lambda kit and it shows me:
10AFR @ idle
11 with some revs
12 near rev limiter
11-12 with cruise
with WOT it shows lean (14AFR) up to 4000 and after that it goes to rich (12) and as closer to redline it goes to where I want 13 afr
Should I do some more tests or should I take one carb down to tell you what it actually is and what inside of it? or I can just turn sume screws?
Thank you (Please Use easy language )
I made a little video: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6393619361619...mp;theater
And 1 scrappy picture of this weber:
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yamaducci Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010 Posts: 2335 Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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You are not going to fix it with adjustments. Floats need to be set to 10.5mm first. Then warm engine, sync carbs, and adjust mixture screws. Test again.
The Wideband readings will tell you which way to go then
AFR at 2400 rpm
AFR at 3400
AFR at 5500. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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yamaducci Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010 Posts: 2335 Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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And going with Murzi on this. Iif you are, and you shouldd be, sync'ing the carbs then you should start with a valve adjustment before doing so.
All of that will be laid out in the tech articles I sent from [email protected] _________________ -John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your response. It was really helpful...loved thouse tech articles Written for dumbs like me I red thouse articles threw and it was really surprising that U can tune the engine with your ears and with feeling it . Something really new when U have done everithing with wideband and EGT Maybe somebody will tell me what aircooled engine wants in AFR numbers? Usually I keep naturally aspirated engines between 13.0-13.3 on WOT 14.7-15 on cruise and idle is ok for it or too lean and should be richer for cooling?
These are 40IDF If its 1600 maybe its ok. bottom end torque was cool eaven with that rich mixture.
owner of the car just did the valve adjustment. Now I look how to set the floats...... then I have to buy snail gauge really quick because I have to order it form england or USA and it comes 1-2 weeks. So its not possible to sync them with regular vacuum gauge? I did my ITBs so....but I don't know are there any holes for connecting it. Actually it has really really good idle and I think its synced
Its really bad that I have to do more than I orders and wait so long time I thaught that I can buy a kit of different jets
I looked that it has some bugpack electric fuelpump, is it ok or maybe it has too much pressure and its as rich because of this?
EDIT: checking floats looks easy...Ill do it for next |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Could tell me somebody at what point I should measure 10.5 ? Edit : I got that
what jets are these:
They are 130
thouse are 80 ....dont know the name:
these are 50:
[/img] |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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I broke my wb sensor with too rich mixture.
But I tried to syncronize the carbs....and noticed that they are not equal on the same carb...what screws to turn to get them equal? They are on the common shaft but difference looks too big.
when I put "2 and "4 to 7kg/h then other 2 will be 6 and 8
Is the air bypass screw correct to syncronize it ?
next question is about mixture screw.....I checked and all they were about 2.5-3.5 turns open......closed them all and opened to 1.5 turn....started the engine and it was still too rich but revs were risen and it was running better...closed them half turn (now they are all 1 turn open and I can breath behind the car....works alot better on idle, doesn't smoke as it did. I havent try to get them equal yet because of not equal vacuum....but is it ok that they have to be so closed or it tellsme that idle jets are way too big?
edit: I got it syncronized
Murzi do I have to look mixture at thouse revs with WOT or cruise?
Thank you |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:05 am Post subject: |
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I got new wideband sensor.
I got vacum equal
I got mixture equal I think.
@ what load do I have to check mixture you gave me? cruise or wot?
AFR at 2400 rpm
AFR at 3400
AFR at 5500. |
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stan_tichomirov Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2005 Posts: 1719 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:26 am Post subject: |
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This is the thread that's been very helpful to me:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293837
Check what size venturies you have. Since you have 130 mains, your venturies may be 32mm. 130s for 28mm venturies is pretty large, if they are 28s you should be able to go smaller on the main jets IMO.
50 idles sound reasonable, you can try adjusting the idle mixture screws with the car warmed up and idleing. Turn in the idle mixture screws until you hear that cylinder sputtering, then back it out 1/2 turn and move on to the next cylinder.
Stan _________________ Aircooled.net
Jansen Enterprise
My 1835cc build
My budget 2276 build |
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RHough Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013 Posts: 299 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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stan_tichomirov wrote: |
This is the thread that's been very helpful to me:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293837
Check what size venturies you have. Since you have 130 mains, your venturies may be 32mm. 130s for 28mm venturies is pretty large, if they are 28s you should be able to go smaller on the main jets IMO.
50 idles sound reasonable, you can try adjusting the idle mixture screws with the car warmed up and idleing. Turn in the idle mixture screws until you hear that cylinder sputtering, then back it out 1/2 turn and move on to the next cylinder.
Stan |
WOW! I don't know how I've missed that thread before! Thanks for posting the link! |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Stan...
I start reading now
venturies are 32 and I tried to adjust mixture screws as you told but I turned 1/4 more after getting highest engine speed (Aircooled.net says thats OK for weber....some other carbs wanted half turn more....I'll try to add some...)
I'll Install new wideband on monday and then I can add if needed
My little problem is that I don´t eaven know how well webers should work with climate we have here. (We have about 2-3 dualweber bugs here in estonia I think.....I've seen only 1 )
Its usually 25c on summer (+/- 5c )
and usually -25 on winter (+/- 5c ) - Its convertible and not used on winter but at the moment the owner would like to use it when its near 10c
When I leaned it abit it idles better but look like it works badly when its cold....its logical to me and looks like its all about compromise when it has no cold air valve....correct? richer mixture makes it better but then it smells badly and smokes when hot.
I have to check what the mixture does when I press some gas...it has some "dead spot" when I press it gently. (add ~ 20 to 40 % throttle) when I add more it works abit better....maybe its lean because of acceleration pump not adjusted correctly....I hope to see it on monday with wideband If I tune megasquirts I work with acceleration enrichment as last thing (when VE table is correct....think I should same way here with carbs too
Thank you. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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jeff01 wrote: |
what jets are these:
They are 130
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The "main jet stack" consists of four parts:
-top part, the holder
-air corrector jet
-Emulsion tube
-main jet
For 32mm venturi: this is usual jetting
210-220 air corrector
f-11 emulsion tube
135-140 main jets
Size of jets is mm, 130=1.3mm |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Thanks alot. It was really helpful.
Idle jet - 50
Then Main - 130
Air correction - 200
F11 - emulsion tubes
I'll recheck ignition, then retune mixture and Install new lambda and let you know what the mixture makes.
I more dumb question: Does mixture screw is tune only idle and when driving under 2500 it doesn't count or does? (I've red that idle jet work up to 2500 not only idle but I don't know how its connected with screw) |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:58 am Post subject: |
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you may try 28 vents and 115 main jets on a 1600,works great over here 200 air an 50 idles are OK in that combo with the F11's,Madmike _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2103
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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what's your fuel pump? you might have too much fuel pressure |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:44 am Post subject: |
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I live in estonia and as I sayd we have less beetles with webers here totally than I have fingers on 1 hand Thatswhy it's not possible to buy or eaven order jets or vents from eaven largest parts stores.
Thatswhy I thaught that maybe I could measure it correctly and order right jets with 1 weborder
fuelpump is some bugpack one and I measured the pressure...looked ok
The engine doesn't feel, look, sound, rev like stock. I don't know what inside of it but it hits 7000RPM realllly quick and pulls sideways with 2nd gear...
I tried to measure the mixture and its really different of what it was when it came here. Im not telling excact result because there were some problems with charging and it was really hard to see mixture near 2400 and 3400 because it pulls so quicly over it with third gear but somehow looks way better in low and middle revs and goes lean over 4000
I'll try to get it charging tomorrow and pull with 4th....then I have more time to see the mixture.
but problem why it came here is bigger than it was because mixture is alot leaner and now it strumbles more when I press some throttle. (mixture goes to lean) Like some acceleration pump problem. |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: |
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I tried to check the mixture at revs you guys told me (2400, 3400, 5500) but its quite impossible it just pulls really quick tach from start to end and mixture is not stable at all.
near 2400 AFR changes really much (I think that when I add throttle from 1000 RPM then acceleration pump still messes with mixture near 2000
but I think its rich (I think its most likely near 12 AFR or eaven richer)
near 3400 still somewhere in 12 AFR I don't know what its near 5500 but it lean from 4000 to rev limiter. its lean 14-14.4 AFR
with cruise its quite same....too rich @ lower RPM and too lean over 4000
Is it correct that Idle screw works only for idle not for cruise and wot under 2400 like idle jet does?
And most importatnt question.....how to get more fuel with acceleration pump? It goes to lean when I add some throttle.
Thank you |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:19 am Post subject: |
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follow the instructions on the wideband thread. Remove the main stacks, tune the idle jets. You are currently rushing and will never get it right doing it that way. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:54 am Post subject: |
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I tried to drive with removed main stacks and it doesnt go eaven to 2000rpm (I think I did something wrong)
I tried 3 times to find best idle and I don't know it the problem with my ears or what but when I tune it to best idle then it about 1-1,5 turn out and I add half turn the idle mixture will be Low 12......when I add quarter turn it was 13 but when I turn them to normal Idle mixture then the idle is not so good any more and driveability is gone because its too lean then.
With half turn it has some driveability but looks rich Is there any sense or Im mistaken somewhere?
Middle part of the revs 2500-4000 looks OK to me ....high 12 mixture @ WOT
And over 4000 its lean (cant cruise normally with 16-17 mixture and wot is in 14AFR 4000-5000 and goes to 15 then.
Biggest prblem for me is that when I add little gas it goes tooooo lean and starts jumping but when I add more (few cm with pedal) it goes to abit lean but gets over it better.....with more than few cm of pedal movement is smoothest.....eaven when I hit it to metal. |
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jeff01 Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 157 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I stopped messing with it for this time....
weather is not good for this car any more....its below zero outside but this is summercar. I try to make it clear to me on winter and make it working better on spring. I just noticed big difference in AFR when idling in 20c garage or 0c outside.
Idle mixture 12AFR - I think I need smaller idle jets
Wot up to 2500 - abit rich 11-12 AFR tells me that too That I need abit smaller Idle ones.
2500-4000 - I think its OK (high 12AFR @ WOT) I think I wouldnt change main jets.
4000-6000 = too lean and rises from 14 to 15 with WOT - I think I need smaller Aircorrector jet
Link
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