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please help newby with carb questions.
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: please help newby with carb questions. Reply with quote

Problem is that I got a new client because nobody could hep himwith carbs here....(99% of estonian cars are going with efi and its really hard to find some oldscool guy who knowssomething about carbs)

So I know nothing about carbs....dont know eaven how many jets are in there and where do they locate. I dont know how straight should be AFR curve with carbs (with efi Im able to keep it in 0.2AFR with no problem with better ecus)

Car Idles, runs, pulls hard.
I have no idea whats in the engine but last owner told that it should be 100hp 1600 Rolling Eyes You can go sideways with second gear with no problem...maybe it really has so much power.

Problem is that it smells really rich, smokes black and not easy to drive behind it closer than 100 meters. When I push pedal gently it doesn't start rising RPMs instantly but when i push it quicker and more it revvs like in dreams.

I started looking problems of air fuel ratio (Owner told me that advance is checked as valves)
Installed wideband lambda kit and it shows me:
10AFR @ idle
11 with some revs
12 near rev limiter
11-12 with cruise
with WOT it shows lean (14AFR) up to 4000 and after that it goes to rich (12) and as closer to redline it goes to where I want 13 afr

Should I do some more tests or should I take one carb down to tell you what it actually is and what inside of it? or I can just turn sume screws?

Thank you (Please Use easy language Smile )

I made a little video: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6393619361619...mp;theater

And 1 scrappy picture of this weber:
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yamaducci
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Start by reading these tech articles. You will learn a lot fast. Also if this is going to be a regular customer then you shdould purchase the Weber manual. Also you can hold a mirror on the side of the carb and see if it is an IDF 40, 44 or 48mm
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-carburetor-tech/


http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Weber-Tuning-Manual-By-WEBER-p/weber-tuning-manual.htm
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are not going to fix it with adjustments. Floats need to be set to 10.5mm first. Then warm engine, sync carbs, and adjust mixture screws. Test again.

The Wideband readings will tell you which way to go then

AFR at 2400 rpm
AFR at 3400
AFR at 5500.
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yamaducci
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And going with Murzi on this. Iif you are, and you shouldd be, sync'ing the carbs then you should start with a valve adjustment before doing so.
All of that will be laid out in the tech articles I sent from [email protected]
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your response. It was really helpful...loved thouse tech articles Smile Written for dumbs like me Smile I red thouse articles threw and it was really surprising that U can tune the engine with your ears and with feeling it . Confused Something really new when U have done everithing with wideband and EGT Very Happy Maybe somebody will tell me what aircooled engine wants in AFR numbers? Usually I keep naturally aspirated engines between 13.0-13.3 on WOT 14.7-15 on cruise and idle is ok for it or too lean and should be richer for cooling?

These are 40IDF If its 1600 maybe its ok. bottom end torque was cool eaven with that rich mixture.

owner of the car just did the valve adjustment. Now I look how to set the floats...... then I have to buy snail gauge really quick because I have to order it form england or USA and it comes 1-2 weeks. So its not possible to sync them with regular vacuum gauge? I did my ITBs so....but I don't know are there any holes for connecting it. Actually it has really really good idle and I think its synced

Its really bad that I have to do more than I orders and wait so long time Sad I thaught that I can buy a kit of different jets Sad

I looked that it has some bugpack electric fuelpump, is it ok or maybe it has too much pressure and its as rich because of this?

EDIT: checking floats looks easy...Ill do it for next Smile
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could tell me somebody at what point I should measure 10.5 ? Edit : I got that Wink
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


what jets are these:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

They are 130

thouse are 80 ....dont know the name:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


these are 50:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


[/img]
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I broke my wb sensor with too rich mixture. Sad
But I tried to syncronize the carbs....and noticed that they are not equal on the same carb...what screws to turn to get them equal? They are on the common shaft but difference looks too big.

when I put "2 and "4 to 7kg/h then other 2 will be 6 and 8
Is the air bypass screw correct to syncronize it ?


next question is about mixture screw.....I checked and all they were about 2.5-3.5 turns open......closed them all and opened to 1.5 turn....started the engine and it was still too rich but revs were risen and it was running better...closed them half turn (now they are all 1 turn open and I can breath behind the car....works alot better on idle, doesn't smoke as it did. I havent try to get them equal yet because of not equal vacuum....but is it ok that they have to be so closed or it tellsme that idle jets are way too big?

edit: I got it syncronized Smile
Murzi do I have to look mixture at thouse revs with WOT or cruise?

Thank you Wink
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got new wideband sensor.
I got vacum equal
I got mixture equal I think.

@ what load do I have to check mixture you gave me? cruise or wot?

AFR at 2400 rpm
AFR at 3400
AFR at 5500.
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the thread that's been very helpful to me:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293837

Check what size venturies you have. Since you have 130 mains, your venturies may be 32mm. 130s for 28mm venturies is pretty large, if they are 28s you should be able to go smaller on the main jets IMO.

50 idles sound reasonable, you can try adjusting the idle mixture screws with the car warmed up and idleing. Turn in the idle mixture screws until you hear that cylinder sputtering, then back it out 1/2 turn and move on to the next cylinder.

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RHough
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stan_tichomirov wrote:
This is the thread that's been very helpful to me:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293837

Check what size venturies you have. Since you have 130 mains, your venturies may be 32mm. 130s for 28mm venturies is pretty large, if they are 28s you should be able to go smaller on the main jets IMO.

50 idles sound reasonable, you can try adjusting the idle mixture screws with the car warmed up and idleing. Turn in the idle mixture screws until you hear that cylinder sputtering, then back it out 1/2 turn and move on to the next cylinder.

Stan


WOW! I don't know how I've missed that thread before! Thanks for posting the link!
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Stan... Smile
I start reading now Smile

venturies are 32 and I tried to adjust mixture screws as you told but I turned 1/4 more after getting highest engine speed (Aircooled.net says thats OK for weber....some other carbs wanted half turn more....I'll try to add some...)
I'll Install new wideband on monday and then I can add if needed Smile

My little problem is that I don´t eaven know how well webers should work with climate we have here. (We have about 2-3 dualweber bugs here in estonia I think.....I've seen only 1 Very Happy )
Its usually 25c on summer (+/- 5c )
and usually -25 on winter (+/- 5c ) - Its convertible and not used on winter but at the moment the owner would like to use it when its near 10c

When I leaned it abit it idles better but look like it works badly when its cold....its logical to me and looks like its all about compromise when it has no cold air valve....correct? richer mixture makes it better but then it smells badly and smokes when hot.

I have to check what the mixture does when I press some gas...it has some "dead spot" when I press it gently. (add ~ 20 to 40 % throttle) when I add more it works abit better....maybe its lean because of acceleration pump not adjusted correctly....I hope to see it on monday with wideband Smile If I tune megasquirts I work with acceleration enrichment as last thing (when VE table is correct....think I should same way here with carbs too Rolling Eyes

Thank you.
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modok
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeff01 wrote:

what jets are these:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

They are 130


The "main jet stack" consists of four parts:
-top part, the holder
-air corrector jet
-Emulsion tube
-main jet

For 32mm venturi: this is usual jetting
210-220 air corrector
f-11 emulsion tube
135-140 main jets

Size of jets is mm, 130=1.3mm
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks alot. It was really helpful.

Idle jet - 50
Then Main - 130
Air correction - 200
F11 - emulsion tubes

I'll recheck ignition, then retune mixture and Install new lambda and let you know what the mixture makes.

I more dumb question: Does mixture screw is tune only idle and when driving under 2500 it doesn't count or does? (I've red that idle jet work up to 2500 not only idle but I don't know how its connected with screw)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you may try 28 vents and 115 main jets on a 1600,works great over here Wink 200 air an 50 idles are OK in that combo with the F11's,Madmike
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what's your fuel pump? you might have too much fuel pressure
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in estonia and as I sayd we have less beetles with webers here totally than I have fingers on 1 hand Very Happy Thatswhy it's not possible to buy or eaven order jets or vents from eaven largest parts stores.
Thatswhy I thaught that maybe I could measure it correctly and order right jets with 1 weborder

fuelpump is some bugpack one and I measured the pressure...looked ok

The engine doesn't feel, look, sound, rev like stock. I don't know what inside of it but it hits 7000RPM realllly quick and pulls sideways with 2nd gear...

I tried to measure the mixture and its really different of what it was when it came here. Im not telling excact result because there were some problems with charging and it was really hard to see mixture near 2400 and 3400 because it pulls so quicly over it with third gear but somehow looks way better in low and middle revs and goes lean over 4000

I'll try to get it charging tomorrow and pull with 4th....then I have more time to see the mixture.

but problem why it came here is bigger than it was because mixture is alot leaner and now it strumbles more when I press some throttle. (mixture goes to lean) Like some acceleration pump problem.
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to check the mixture at revs you guys told me (2400, 3400, 5500) but its quite impossible Sad it just pulls really quick tach from start to end and mixture is not stable at all.

near 2400 AFR changes really much (I think that when I add throttle from 1000 RPM then acceleration pump still messes with mixture near 2000
but I think its rich (I think its most likely near 12 AFR or eaven richer)
near 3400 still somewhere in 12 AFR I don't know what its near 5500 but it lean from 4000 to rev limiter. its lean 14-14.4 AFR

with cruise its quite same....too rich @ lower RPM and too lean over 4000

Is it correct that Idle screw works only for idle not for cruise and wot under 2400 like idle jet does? Rolling Eyes

And most importatnt question.....how to get more fuel with acceleration pump? It goes to lean when I add some throttle.

Thank you Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

follow the instructions on the wideband thread. Remove the main stacks, tune the idle jets. You are currently rushing and will never get it right doing it that way.
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to drive with removed main stacks and it doesnt go eaven to 2000rpm (I think I did something wrong)

I tried 3 times to find best idle and I don't know it the problem with my ears or what but when I tune it to best idle then it about 1-1,5 turn out and I add half turn the idle mixture will be Low 12......when I add quarter turn it was 13 but when I turn them to normal Idle mixture then the idle is not so good any more and driveability is gone because its too lean then.
With half turn it has some driveability but looks rich Is there any sense or Im mistaken somewhere?

Middle part of the revs 2500-4000 looks OK to me ....high 12 mixture @ WOT
And over 4000 its lean (cant cruise normally with 16-17 mixture and wot is in 14AFR 4000-5000 and goes to 15 then.

Biggest prblem for me is that when I add little gas it goes tooooo lean and starts jumping but when I add more (few cm with pedal) it goes to abit lean but gets over it better.....with more than few cm of pedal movement is smoothest.....eaven when I hit it to metal.
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jeff01
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stopped messing with it for this time....
weather is not good for this car any more....its below zero outside but this is summercar. I try to make it clear to me on winter and make it working better on spring. I just noticed big difference in AFR when idling in 20c garage or 0c outside.

Idle mixture 12AFR - I think I need smaller idle jets
Wot up to 2500 - abit rich 11-12 AFR tells me that too That I need abit smaller Idle ones.
2500-4000 - I think its OK (high 12AFR @ WOT) I think I wouldnt change main jets.
4000-6000 = too lean and rises from 14 to 15 with WOT - I think I need smaller Aircorrector jet Rolling Eyes




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