64 Beetle seat rail removal on original pans

steve n

OK, here goes.
I need to replace my driver seat rail on my 64 Bug. It has started to split from the rear, kind of like a peeling banana. It has worn so thin at the rear it is no longer safe. I purchased the WW rails. (I have read that fit-ment will need to be addressed, no problem there.) I made measurements so the new will situate just were the old was. On the side rails I can see dimples where the spot welds "should be" and started to drill them out. I was only trying to drill the weld so as to not drill all the way through the floor. Well that didn't work on the second dimple. My question is, the front cross rail seems to not have spot welds, Has anyone removed their rails? The internet has failed me here. (You Tube, nothing! The Samba Forums, nothing! Ask.com, nothing too!) What gives? I know that not everyone who has replaced their seat rails have replaced the pans in the process. So do I have to grind the front piece to the floor? Is it welded along the front seam against the floor? I see no welding bead or a brazed look either. I need to do this the right way because I will be going to sell the car and I don't want a safety issue going to the new buyer. I have a problem half-assing stuff so the correct way would be what I'm looking for. I know it's not rocket science but I don't want to make it more of an issue than it needs to be. But once I know how to get them off I can weld them on without rebuilding the pans, I hope.
Thanks all for your help!

57BLITZ · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject:

I'd be willing to bet that they are spot welded on all three sections.
I did the reverse on my '68 Ghia . . . I had to salvage the tracks when I replaced the floor pans. It was all spot welded. In a BUNCH of spots!!!
You might need to wire brush everything to see the spot welds and even then they are real hard to see sometimes!
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grandpa pete · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject:

Great tool for what you are doing

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57BLITZ · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject:

I just crawled under my '64 to check for ya . . . now I am willing to bet a huge sum that they ARE spot-welded!
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VOLKSWAGNUT · Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:03 am Post subject:

Original pans... spot welded..
Aftermarket pans.....maybe.....maybe not..

I have had a few cheap pans with only a few welds holding the rails on..
I always go the extra mile and add more welds.... or ditch them entirely.
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57BLITZ · Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject:

steve n · Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:08 am Post subject: spot welds

I found all the spot welds finally. I used an air hammer to raise the rails slightly and I was able to see where they were. I did bugger up some of the pan in the process. I little hammer and dolly and I was ready to weld the new ones in. I also sanded all the areas to weld to bare metal, including the new rails from WW...New problem.
I purchased an Eastwood 135 mig welder. Did a lot of practice since I haven't welded in years especially a "Mig." I got it down pretty good. I drilled some smaller holes to weld the front rail to the side rails, and the sides rails to the pan. I had a brilliant idea to weld the front to the sides while the channels were in the seat (that way the width would be perfect) I had the welder set at "F" and 7.5 like the chart stated. It didn't hold at all. cranked it up to "G" and had some penetration. So The front is on, slides of the seat nicely, go to weld it in, same settings on the MIG, arced on the pan first then filled the holes starting from the rear of the rails. I only did 6 holes (3 on both sides) let it cool. used a floor jack and a 1 x 1 piece of wood under the pan under the front rail so the pan would be straight with the rail. Then all the welds popped off the pan, no penetration. I was running a hotter setting than it was recommended but the pan only had a slight burn on it. Any thoughts people?

grandpa pete · Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:25 am Post subject:

How small are the holes you are drilling ?
to plug weld you need holes at least 3/32
The small hole doesn't let the heat get to the bottom piece of metal and no penetration means no weld...sorry Sad

Be aware that when you drill the holes you may bend the metal ; use your dolly to insure good fit
another trick is use two sheet metal screws to keep the piece in place then just fill those holes when finished .

small holes common mistake ; I have done it too

lots of welding info in the paint and body forum
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steve n · Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:40 am Post subject:

I think they were 1/8" at first, but they looked too small. Then I went back through each hole and went two steps bigger. I think they are 3/16" or larger. I see what you are stating Pete. I don't want blow through the floor welding these on either. I think more voltage is in order.
Also a great idea about the screws.
Thanks

grandpa pete · Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:18 am Post subject:

If you have 3/16th holes they are definitely big enough ;
next thought is that you are moving too fast....more heat WILL blow through . that's the last resort....are you doing a full three count at each hole or are you moving on as soon as the metal rod melts

One thousand one , one thousand two , one thousand three

there are some GREAT U TUBE videos on mig welding if you want more help or pm me with a phone number ; I'm bored sitting on the couch with a twisted knee Sad

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57BLITZ · Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:31 am Post subject:

Make sure you are getting a GOOD ground!
Your holes should be large enough so you will be able to strike the arc on the clean floor pan and then move out to fill the hole in a circular motion. 3/16' should be good.
Test your heat setting on a piece if the old seat track.
You will want to see those spot-welds under the floor pans as little bumps when you are finished and not just a spot with the paint burned off.
Are you using flux-core wire or did you get gas?
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steve n · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:41 am Post subject:

57Blitz, it is gas welding. I tried a few times, I fixed some holes in the pan without any problem. I don't think this 135 Eastwood welder has the power to do the job. I moved up the amps and still no penetration. I figured what the hell, the rails looks like crap now, so I turned the voltage all the way and still had a proud high weld. Seat rail pulled right off. So I cleaned up the new seat rail pieces and tried running a bead on it and same thing, high proud bead of wire. This is what happens when you don't have the option of 220 in the garage. And now I have to see how long of a 220 extension cord can be used. 70' may be too long but I don't know. I will get a 220 welder and see what happens. Funny how stranded you feel with no seat rail = no seat = can't move the car now. (garage is uphill from house)

grandpa pete · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:29 am Post subject:

I do ALL of my welding with a 110 unit on a 50 foot extension cord ( see build thread below page 4 )...
..Are you getting a good " eggs frying buzz " noise when welding or a " pop pop pop " sound ?? ( wire speed adjustment )
What pressure do you have the argon running while welding.....Not enough argon gives a brittle weld .( 15 lbs )
Try holding the welder at an angle so that the side of the welder tip is supported by the same metal that you are welding 1/4 inch away..
.if you are using the welder out in the air straight on like stick welding you might be too far away and loosing gas
Do you have a fan on cuz it's hot in the garage ? ( loosing gas in weld field )
What size wire are you using ? ( .023 )
And I'll suggest the u tube videos again.....

Smile

you can do this Wink

I've done ALL these wrong.....that's how I can help you !!!
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steve n · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject:

Hi Pete, I am inside my garage, no fans, argon at 25 when the trigger is pulled. I have to get the weld tip to lay down touching the seat rail bottom to get to the further most rear hole. Using .025 wire. Good ground using the tunnel seat belt bolt and believe it or not, it doesn't have splatter and it sounds like the frying bacon sound. My neighbor has a 220 and I may chance getting the 64 down to the house and use the 220 plug in the laundry porch. (I can alwas use a bucket to drive it back)I do find it odd it isn't working correctly. I ale did the 1-2-3 count the last time I did it. Thanks for all the input. I will get this gone one way or another.

VOLKSWAGNUT · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:18 am Post subject:

I use a 120v Lincoln with Argon.
23 on sheet metal
30 on heavier stuff.

I've never had any issues... even burning through old paint..

Ill only break out the 240v stick for da big stuff..
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

grandpa pete · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:06 am Post subject:

I'm out of ideas..... Crying or Very sad

save gas turn it down to 15 Idea

I don't know how much difference the .023 wire OR .025 would make .

You'll just have to drive over for another lesson tomorrow Shocked

_________________
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66 sedan delivery Type 6

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569619&highlight=sedan+delivery

57BLITZ · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject:

steve n · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject:

Thank you everyone! I will give it a go this weekend. I will have the freezer, fridge and the lights turned off this time. I'm having the shop resided at the moment and I hear if all still fails, I can run 220 extension cord from the house if needed to get a 220 unit. (That is about $250 just for the good cabling for the extension.) I will let you all know what happens. Time for a beer!!

bluebus86 · Banned Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075

simply grind the old rail away from the spot welds, so the under laying floor pan is not touched nor drilled Once you thin out the seat rails above the welds, the rail will tear right off. Your not saving the rails, you are saving the floor, so no holes in the floor please, just tear away at the rail with a disc grinder or high speed course sanding disc.
that is the best way, no little spot weld cutters and such are needed, unless you want to save the old rail.
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steve n · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:23 am Post subject: seat rails

Well I finally had the time to work on the seat rails last weekend. Like I thought, I had everything unplugged that uses any energy and the welder worked great. I did use #4 sheet metal screws to position the rails and left them in. Very small and strong enough to pull the sagging floor up to the rail front. Thanks for all of the input. It's primed and painted and the the fear of the welds breaking will go away in about another year or 100 miles.


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64 Beetle seat rail removal on original pans
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