KEP Shifting issues - Tranny pulled - *SOLVED*

[thebusandus]

Hoping to gain some opinions here. Bear in mind this was my first time ever delving into clutch work. I am very green, but I don't know what I'm missing here. I am trying to leave on a very long drive down south. I have to make it out of here before the roads get very bad so time is definitely of the essence!

Just tried to complete the subaru conversion.

75 Bus - 5 Rib 002 Tranny. 200mm Kit from KEP kit / Adapter , flywheel, HD clutch, stage 2 pressure plate, new throw out bearing

Issue - Can't shift while bus running. Clutch burned up in 1000 ft.

Can shift while bus is not running, can force it into reverse while running but it still grinds. Messed around with the clutch adjustment wing nut, seems to be in adjustment well. Cable seemed good so I pulled the engine / tranny.

Clutch plate lining appears to be nearly gone. Pilot bearing (needle bearing) seems in good shape (it was new with flywheel)

Flywheel seems to have some wear here, but can't actually determine if this is new or from the factory. Literally only drove it 1000 ft up the street, 1000 ft home. Then had to do a 5 point turn to reverse it into the garage.

A picture of the clutch wear. I ordered the parts over the phone, not sure if I am to pleased they recommended a stage two for street driving where longevity and reliability is key.. with a possibility of some towing. Now from other sites I've read stage two pressure plates cause breaking of other parts.. With the lining nearly gone, is this clutch toast, or should I still try to run it?

There is a pretty big gap here between the adapter plate and the flywheel, enough that I thought originally something must have been wrong, but it seemed to still install fine so I ran it. Bolts tightened to spec, star pattern... Could this be the issue?

Throw Out Bearing - I installed a new throw out bearing. When I was messing with it and pushing down the clutch arm I pushed to far without the pressure plate in and the side of it caught on the end of the input shaft, bending one of the springs slightly. As time is of the essence I still ran it. here is a video of it's operation, as you can see with no pressure the left side doesn't operate the same as the right side but I can't see how this would cause the issues I'm having as the arms would still push the throw out bearing onto the pressure plate correctly / simultaneously.

Video through this link
https://flic.kr/p/pmSpfT

Other - I noticed that after only this minimal usage my bottom two studs were de-threading when I was removing the nut (nut was stuck) The left one came out, the right on sheared off (wtf!) I was not applying much pressure either, I don't know what kind of low quality studs were being used as one actually bent a bit as well.. I was thinking, it seemed like the nuts were at the end of the threaded portion when tightening the trans to the engine. Perhaps I need to buy some studs with longer threads, or just run some pure threaded studs. If the nuts didn't tighten all the way as the studs weren't threaded long enough then it would cause the input shaft to be just a little bit short? Or would that be a mute point as the splines of the input shaft definitely were in the clutch..

I'm really at my wits end after working day and night on this thing and it's been one thing after another. Any help is appreciate, making fun of my lack of skills is fine if you can provide some answers

Thanks
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita

Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017

[thebusandus]

Also, I mounted the transmission to the adapter plate / engine without the flywheel / clutch with grease on the input shaft to see if it might possibly be to long and interfere with the driveshaft. It is not even long enough to begin to enter the driveshaft, so that is not a possibility.
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita

Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017

[timvw7476]

if the disc smoked within 1,000ft, i'm thinking the T.O. bearing is wedged in
the clutch housing-is it possible to grind some material off the fork it attaches
to, to let it move towards the gearbox, keeping it from partially disengaging the
disc?
also the input shaft needs to get support from the needle bearing inside the
flywheel, if it goes unsupported, the transmission input shaft seal gets destroyed and leaks.

[Ian]

From the looks of it you have a Bug flywheel. That is definitely a Bug clutch. Stage 2 clutch is hilarious!!!! You shouldn't go Stage 2 unless you have a hydraulic clutch system, it will destroy your factory cable tube and break all your spot welds in a jiffy. Think about how much tension you are putting through the cable with a Stage 2 clutch, nutzo.

Can you take head on shots of the flywheel and transmission? We need both.
_________________
All your Buses are belong to us.
Love and good roads!
IN LOVING MEMORY OF ROB CRESS 1968-2012

[Tcash]

Hi
Is it possible to install the disc backwards?

1. Pressure plate is not providing pressure.
Put pressure plate against disc on flywheel. There should be about 3-4 16th gap between the pressure plate and the flywheel.
If it does not the flywheel is machined wrong or wrong disc or pressure plate.
2. No free play on throw out bearing.
Install disc, pressure plate, throw out bearing and trans. There should be free play in the throw out lever.

The disc does not look that bad.
The flywheel got hot. But a 1000 ft is not going to warp it. I would run it.

Good Luck
Tcash

[raygreenwood]

Think logically on this for a minute.

When the engine is off....no clutch is required to shift. That is normal. Nothing is turning so the syncros dont have to operate.....so the transmission has no need to be decoupled from the engine.

Now....when its running and you step on the clutch.....the pressure plate must flex far enough to unclamp the clutch disc and decouple power from the engine.....so the syncros can let you align the the shift collars/sliders.

If the pressure plate does not flex far enough when the TO bearing contacts the fingers. ...it will only partly release pressure from the clutch disc. This means you are still putting load on the transmission input shaft.....but do not have full release on the disc...but you have enough that it slips....which is what burns it up.

So you have one of several conditions:

1. Either as the others have noted.....your clutch cable has not enough strength to fully flex the pressure plate because it is stretching.....which will leave the disc partially engaged....burning the disc and not allowing your synchros to work

2. The gap between Pressure plate and flywheel friction face is too small. So even if the clutch pressure plate is flexing the full amount required....it cannot fully release from the disc.....burning it from slippage and preventing shifting. This cancbe caused by having the ledge on the flywheel where the pressure plate resides being turned down too far.....or the face of the pressure plate is too thick....or the disc itself is too thick.

3. If for some reason your flywheel is farther away from the transmission than normal....which may be the adapter plate.....you cannot get enough throw from the TO bearing to flex the PP all the way....and again....the disc is not fully released.....disc slips and burns....and you cant shift gears.
Ray

[ryDANGERry]

I just got the adaptor and same clutch for my bus. The pressure plate I got has a ring where the throw out bearing presses against to put even pressure against it. It stays attached to the pressure plate and the throw out bearing is on the fork on the tranny.

If that part is missing you may not have enough throw on the clutch to fully disengage the plate. And possibly burning it up.

I have not driven mine yet, but I feel I am able to get enough throw on the clutch with the cable. Time will tell.

[skills@eurocarsplus]

adapter plate goes to the engine, and the adapter flywheel attaches through the center of the plate, so we can rule that out.

get some photos of your t/o bearing and your cross shaft.

running a stage 2 clutch isn't hard on anything, but your left leg. your cables will stretch but not to worry, just carry a spare.

from what you described, your jacked up t/o bearing spring got the t/o bearing off kilter, gave you a shitty pedal and kept the clutch partially engaged and burnt up the clutch.

or, your cross shaft bent/came un welded/cracked etc and/or your cross shaft bushings are flat.

I don't recall a heavy duty cross shaft for the 091. could be wrong....either way, get us some CLEAR photos from a few different angles.

I of all people can share the sheer frustration of this swap, so I feel your pain. that said there is way more that a KEP adapter involved to make things play nice together. some get lucky, some don't.

I didn't chime in on a lot of your build as I didn't want to be 'that guy' but the reality is very few people want to listen to what I have to say anyway, so I let them twist in the wind for a bit till I have their attention.


just did over 300 miles on my swap today without an issue, so there is still hope for ya
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[thebusandus]

[thebusandus]

[thebusandus]

[thebusandus]

[thebusandus]

[timvw7476]

i have not seen a 215mm or 228mm fail in a bus driven by someone with
stick experience-those are over-engineered so your 200 will do just fine.
if the disc is 8mm thick it's still viable, the pressure plate should fit
flush with the flywheel where your mounting pads are. Some PPs are "tight"
and don't seat right away, as you cinch the bolts criss-cross, they usually
seat with a "twing" noise, if not you may have to remove material from the
edge of the PP near the mounting points to make it fit flush with flywheel.
Now that i think of it, if the pressure plate was riding high/not seated, that
would lower clamping force and yield some scorched clutch lining.

[1967250s]

Is it possible that the trans input shaft needs cutting/trimming or the shaft is somehow binding in the flywheel? Maybe the kit sets up so that the input shaft is still pressed against the crankshaft and it keeps spinning the disc, thus not letting the syncros disengage/engage, maybe spinning it enough to burn the disc. And why do you want to use the disc without springs, that is going to be a pain. IIRC, 8mm is minimum thickness of the disc. While your at it, what shape is the clutch cable and pedal? Cleaned and greased?

[Sloride]

I'm using the stage 1 in my bus - 091 trans with 200 mm clutch and 3 rib bellhousing. It is smooth as butter. I'm pretty sure you remove that centring ring. You only use that for early throw out bearings.

Craig
_________________
1972 Westfalia - 1.8 VW in-line h2o conversion
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Link to the engine swap:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=565304&highlight=

1964 Ruby Red Beetle

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=705757&highlight=ruby+red

[raygreenwood]

Oh....and please remove all of that grease from the trans input shaft splines. That will melt...and centrifugal force will sling it into the disc.....ruining it in one second. It looks like some of that has already happened.
If grease has gotten on the disc you need a new one.

Use eithet a very, very thin coat of anti-seize or pure moly/graphite paste. Brush it on and then wipe it dry so only color remains. That is all it needs. Ray

[ryDANGERry]

DiVo, my bus is a 1970. I live close to KEP, so I went to pick up the adaptor and the clutch directly from them. I didn't reaize I ordered a stage 2 clutch until I got home and started installing it. They told me about the higher friction of the clutch to overcome the higher power from the Subaru engine. The whole kit came with a throw out bearing, pilot bearing, and the pressure plate and clutch disk. The ring was already attached to the pressure plate for me.

When I was bolting the pressure plate down to the flywheel with the clutch disk in place I had the same "gap" from the plate to the flywheel as you have in one of your pictures, but when you start bolting it down then the fingers start to tighten inside and flatten out, you want to go around in circles tightening the bolts to make them even.

Hope you get it!

[ejon]

The tip of your input shaft is to long looking at the photo. measure from the machined surface. starting just in front of the splines to the tip.

if you get 1 5/8's, cut it down to 1 3/16's then bevel the tip as it was.

on the factory cross shaft. the arms are only spot welded , using a stage 2 or 1 .. do a full weld on each arm or get a heavy duty one. most those are sold as empi and they do break. your better to just weld that one.

remove the return spring and you can do the welding in place. if you don't weld it, it's going to break sooner or later .


just of the clutch looks fine. KEP is the top of the line..

[ejon]

so you can confirm what I just posted read this ..

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458413&highlight=rib+trans