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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: Alternator Today...... Maybe Solar Tomorrow? |
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I'm pretty good at most things...... Sadly some of the simpler answers at times elude me.
My 86 Multivan (Weekender) came wired with the charging relay under the drivers seat........ But no battery is installed.
I plan on installing a single deep cycle 12volt or two 6 volt golf cart batteries under the rear bench seat.
Now the Question......
Please answer For an idiot to understand.
What is the best charging option?
Utilize VW's relay?
Purchase a more modern regulating control?
What if in the future I add solar?
Is there a best controller for an alternator today and to tap in a solar panel tomorrow?
I'm sure this answer has been posted here in the past, probably multiple times, buried in some 40 page post of mind numbing solar discussion but if it is...... It eluded my old cloudy brain.....
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Vinzanto Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012 Posts: 247 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have had great success by using this setup:
-GW Aux kit (maintains Dometic 12V function)
-Yandina C100 (combines/seperates batteries automatically)
-Werker AGM Deep Cycle battery (35 Ah)
-Bosch 100 W solar kit
(http://www.windynation.com/Monocrystalline-Solar-Kits/100-Watt-Monocrystalline-Solar-Panel-Complete-Kit-for-RVs-Boats-and-Off-Grid/-/352?p=YzE9MzA=)
-400 W Inverter hard-wired into the deep cycle
After many many road trips and long distance travels over long periods of time I have no complaints about my set-up. As a matter of fact I can have my radio on, all interior lights on (led's), laptop plugged in, accompanied with cooking and drinking into the night I've never had a low battery scare. Even when the battery level indicator is in the red, I wake up and BAM, green light. My setup typically maintains both batteries topped off at around 13.2 volts! _________________ 1984 Vanagon Westfalia Wolfsberg |
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thatvwbusguy Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007 Posts: 1712 Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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A pair of 6V deep cycles under the rear seat and a Blue Sea Systems 7610 ACR is a tough combo to beat for long term cost per amp hour, simplicity and durability. Wire the ACR to the starter post for a nice short charging path to minimize voltage drop and material cost.
If you are positive that you will be adding solar, many people like the SurePower 1314 omni directional charging relay, since it will only allow the solar to charge the auxiliary battery. Bi-directional charging relays like the Blue Seas 7610 or the Yandina C100 will combine to charge the starting battery as well once the auxiliary reaches ~13V.
The GW auxiliary battery kit is designed to charge a small (55Ah) battery. Trying to charge anything larger through the old stock wiring will result in chronic undercharging that will shorten the lifespan of the auxiliary battery. Likewise, the stock charging relay is not really designed to recharge a large deep cycle auxiliary battery. _________________ Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, solar is only a big maybe someday item.
My style of camping for the foreseeable future will involve very few long term stays in one place and many one or two day stops with motoring in between. I think for now charging batteries via the Alternator only is a totally viable option.
I'll probably wire in a battery maintainer for the cold off season months.
Most likely I'll install two Deka GC 15 or 25's depending on price spread between the two.
I buy a LOT of batteries for work so I should get a decent price on a pair. I'm running six of the GC25's right now in a golf cart and they keep on going strong after 7 years of heavy seasonal use.
I do plan on adding a portable refrigerator of a yet to be decided brand, truck fridge, ARB, etc. so I do want to be able to power that for about two days without worry.
Here is the data on the two battery choices. I'm using East Penn Deka because this is what my normal supplier sells. A LOT of big name brands are East Penn made anyway.
Thanks for the advice guys! I appreciate the dual batteries for dummies tutorial!
I notice on the literature for the Blue Sea charging relay
https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A
that they want fuses everywhere? At both batteries and for ground...... Really needed or is this fuse system mainly for boats?
I figure the Bus Bar is definitely a Boat only item, my body/chassis is one giant Bus Bar!
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Last edited by djkeev on Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:55 am; edited 3 times in total |
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singler3360 Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 1191 Location: Corvallis, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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djkeev wrote: |
I notice on the literature for the Blue Sea item that they want fuses everywhere? At both batteries and for ground...... Really needed or is this fuse system mainly for boats?
I figure the Bus Bar is definitely a Boat only item, my body/chassis is one giant Bus Bar!
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TenCentLife and others in other threads have recommended fast blow 400A fuses between the aux. and starter batteries and the isolator/combiner. I have yet to install them but I do have a 100A fuse between the aux. battery and the Blue Seas fuse panel. I think you are correct about the bus bar for ground. Finding a proper ground is not an issue in our vans compared to a boat. |
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singler3360 Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 1191 Location: Corvallis, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Vinzanto wrote: |
Even when the battery level indicator is in the red, I wake up and BAM, green light. My setup typically maintains both batteries topped off at around 13.2 volts! |
I don't see how this could be possible with solar. Are you plugged into shore power with a charger at night. Care to elaborate? |
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Vinzanto Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012 Posts: 247 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:50 am Post subject: |
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singler3360:
No I just rely on my solar setup. But my term "wake up" and "morning" are relative...I usually sleep in until 11 or noon. I have been very pleased by the efficiency of my setup.
So yes, not only is topping-off possible these are the results a get on a very regular basis. This is assuming that the panel is receiving direct sunlight and is not shade covered. _________________ 1984 Vanagon Westfalia Wolfsberg |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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singler3360 Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 1191 Location: Corvallis, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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djkeev wrote: |
400 amp seems like one heck of a fuse!
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Agreed. I'm no guru here. I think it's protection against a catastrophic short that would result in all the amps in the battery being dumped at once resulting in a fire. It's worth searching the threads for more info on this even if you decide to not protect against this scenario. Like I said, I have not installed these fuses nor have I studied it closely and done the math myself.
Thanks for posting the link in Amazon to the terminal fuse holder. |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 11998 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Megafuses are available up to 500 amps if needed. I have found 100 or 150 amp fuses and holders in late model full sized american cars.
The only device that I know that needs high amp protection like that are winches.
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singler3360 Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 1191 Location: Corvallis, Oregon
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thatvwbusguy Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007 Posts: 1712 Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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I have been using LittleFuse MIDI/AMI fuses for a while on most projects that require 10AWG or larger wiring. They are tough, don't require the need for a mounting bracket and can be found in 30A-200A ratings.
I am currently waiting for some high quality 1" 4:1 heat shrink to arrive that will make a nice weather resistant encasing for the entire fuse and holder when installing in exterior mounting locations like the starter stud to ACR installation that works well when installing the auxiliary battery under the rear seat. This setup would also work for people who like to fuse the main feed from the alternator.
For installations where you would like the MIDI fuse holder secured to something, a standard screw down cable tie does a great job. _________________ Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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pushkick Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007 Posts: 1366
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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i dont know if this is a good idea to fuse the ground circuit. if the fuse blows dosnt this leave potential on the rest of the circuit, which could lead to other problems. i would double check that with the manufacturer. _________________ i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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thatvwbusguy Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007 Posts: 1712 Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Blue Sea Systems recommends a 10-15A inline fuse on the ground wire "in the unlikely event that there is a fault in the ACR internal circuitry that allows fault current to flow from the high powered positive leads to the negative reference wire".
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/540
Since the ground wire is only used to ground the coil of the relay, it can be much smaller than the main wires to the A&B posts. Without a fuse installed on the ground wire, the ground wire itself would become a crude sort of fusible link, where the wire melts once it surpasses its maximum ampacity. _________________ Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion. |
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pushkick Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007 Posts: 1366
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:54 am Post subject: |
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since i dont know the internals of this device there is alot of unknowns here. if there is some failure that would put any chance of potential on the circuit after the fuse blows this is a dangerous practice. the reason fuses are used in control or power circuits is to eliminate the source of power not remove grounds. grounds are used to divert power to provide protection to people. if you want me to cite the NFPA regulations and standard practices i can. _________________ i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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rfoubi Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2004 Posts: 224 Location: Rossland BC
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I am in the process of upgrading my setup to include solar as well. Have pretty much what is described here, Aux battery wired with 100A fuse to blue seas ACR, other side of the ACR fused to starting battery. It Has been working flawlessly for several years running TF49, interior lights, charging laptops etc.
However looking to boost the stationary power for when camped in the desert for more than a day or two.
So my simple question is this: Do i wire my solar/charge controller in to the aux battery direct? and then if and when it gets topped up by the solar, the ACR will switch the charge to the starter battery? Presumably dont even need to worry about the starter battery in the situation i described anyway? |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Apples and oranges. These are automotive 12v DC circuits. In automotive 12v DC power circuits the ground isn't for protection of people. The ground functions as an active element that carries full current. There are times when a fuse is needed on a ground for protection.
In AC power circuits the ground carries no current unless there is a fault of some kind. Then the ground is an emergency alternate path for current to take so the circuit breaker will trip and so that a human doesn't become the alternate path and suffer a shock or worse. Having a fuse on an AC ground would be a no no.
In addition lots of automotive 12v DC power circuits have no fuse protection even on the live supply wire and this would simply not be allowed in AC power wiring. If you would care to see an example of the VW factory putting fuses on grounds simply look at Bentley page 97.140, bottom of the page current tracks 7 and 8.
Mark
pushkick wrote: |
since i dont know the internals of this device there is alot of unknowns here. if there is some failure that would put any chance of potential on the circuit after the fuse blows this is a dangerous practice. the reason fuses are used in control or power circuits is to eliminate the source of power not remove grounds. grounds are used to divert power to provide protection to people. if you want me to cite the NFPA regulations and standard practices i can. |
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