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Alternator Today...... Maybe Solar Tomorrow?
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: Alternator Today...... Maybe Solar Tomorrow? Reply with quote

I'm pretty good at most things...... Sadly some of the simpler answers at times elude me.

My 86 Multivan (Weekender) came wired with the charging relay under the drivers seat........ But no battery is installed.

I plan on installing a single deep cycle 12volt or two 6 volt golf cart batteries under the rear bench seat.

Now the Question......
Please answer For an idiot to understand.
What is the best charging option?

Utilize VW's relay?
Purchase a more modern regulating control?

What if in the future I add solar?
Is there a best controller for an alternator today and to tap in a solar panel tomorrow?

I'm sure this answer has been posted here in the past, probably multiple times, buried in some 40 page post of mind numbing solar discussion but if it is...... It eluded my old cloudy brain..... Crying or Very sad

Dave
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Vinzanto
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had great success by using this setup:

-GW Aux kit (maintains Dometic 12V function)
-Yandina C100 (combines/seperates batteries automatically)
-Werker AGM Deep Cycle battery (35 Ah)
-Bosch 100 W solar kit
(http://www.windynation.com/Monocrystalline-Solar-Kits/100-Watt-Monocrystalline-Solar-Panel-Complete-Kit-for-RVs-Boats-and-Off-Grid/-/352?p=YzE9MzA=)
-400 W Inverter hard-wired into the deep cycle

After many many road trips and long distance travels over long periods of time I have no complaints about my set-up. As a matter of fact I can have my radio on, all interior lights on (led's), laptop plugged in, accompanied with cooking and drinking into the night I've never had a low battery scare. Even when the battery level indicator is in the red, I wake up and BAM, green light. My setup typically maintains both batteries topped off at around 13.2 volts!
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thatvwbusguy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A pair of 6V deep cycles under the rear seat and a Blue Sea Systems 7610 ACR is a tough combo to beat for long term cost per amp hour, simplicity and durability. Wire the ACR to the starter post for a nice short charging path to minimize voltage drop and material cost.

If you are positive that you will be adding solar, many people like the SurePower 1314 omni directional charging relay, since it will only allow the solar to charge the auxiliary battery. Bi-directional charging relays like the Blue Seas 7610 or the Yandina C100 will combine to charge the starting battery as well once the auxiliary reaches ~13V.

The GW auxiliary battery kit is designed to charge a small (55Ah) battery. Trying to charge anything larger through the old stock wiring will result in chronic undercharging that will shorten the lifespan of the auxiliary battery. Likewise, the stock charging relay is not really designed to recharge a large deep cycle auxiliary battery.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, solar is only a big maybe someday item.
My style of camping for the foreseeable future will involve very few long term stays in one place and many one or two day stops with motoring in between. I think for now charging batteries via the Alternator only is a totally viable option.
I'll probably wire in a battery maintainer for the cold off season months.

Most likely I'll install two Deka GC 15 or 25's depending on price spread between the two.
I buy a LOT of batteries for work so I should get a decent price on a pair. I'm running six of the GC25's right now in a golf cart and they keep on going strong after 7 years of heavy seasonal use.

I do plan on adding a portable refrigerator of a yet to be decided brand, truck fridge, ARB, etc. so I do want to be able to power that for about two days without worry.

Here is the data on the two battery choices. I'm using East Penn Deka because this is what my normal supplier sells. A LOT of big name brands are East Penn made anyway.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks for the advice guys! I appreciate the dual batteries for dummies tutorial! Embarassed

I notice on the literature for the Blue Sea charging relay

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A

that they want fuses everywhere? At both batteries and for ground...... Really needed or is this fuse system mainly for boats?
I figure the Bus Bar is definitely a Boat only item, my body/chassis is one giant Bus Bar!

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Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert


Last edited by djkeev on Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:55 am; edited 3 times in total
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singler3360
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:


I notice on the literature for the Blue Sea item that they want fuses everywhere? At both batteries and for ground...... Really needed or is this fuse system mainly for boats?
I figure the Bus Bar is definitely a Boat only item, my body/chassis is one giant Bus Bar!


TenCentLife and others in other threads have recommended fast blow 400A fuses between the aux. and starter batteries and the isolator/combiner. I have yet to install them but I do have a 100A fuse between the aux. battery and the Blue Seas fuse panel. I think you are correct about the bus bar for ground. Finding a proper ground is not an issue in our vans compared to a boat.
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singler3360
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinzanto wrote:
Even when the battery level indicator is in the red, I wake up and BAM, green light. My setup typically maintains both batteries topped off at around 13.2 volts!


I don't see how this could be possible with solar. Are you plugged into shore power with a charger at night. Care to elaborate?
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Vinzanto
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

singler3360:

No I just rely on my solar setup. But my term "wake up" and "morning" are relative...I usually sleep in until 11 or noon. I have been very pleased by the efficiency of my setup.
So yes, not only is topping-off possible these are the results a get on a very regular basis. This is assuming that the panel is receiving direct sunlight and is not shade covered.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

400 amp seems like one heck of a fuse!

What are we protecting against? A lightning strike?

Most homes only have 200 amp protection.

Anyway....... Something like this I wonder? Bolts to the battery directly, feed wires exit from the fuse.......
Looks like a slick design for such an application.

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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singler3360
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
400 amp seems like one heck of a fuse!


Agreed. I'm no guru here. I think it's protection against a catastrophic short that would result in all the amps in the battery being dumped at once resulting in a fire. It's worth searching the threads for more info on this even if you decide to not protect against this scenario. Like I said, I have not installed these fuses nor have I studied it closely and done the math myself.

Thanks for posting the link in Amazon to the terminal fuse holder.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megafuses are available up to 500 amps if needed. I have found 100 or 150 amp fuses and holders in late model full sized american cars.
The only device that I know that needs high amp protection like that are winches.
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singler3360
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the thread that talks about fast blow Class T 400A fuses to protect against a dead short. More or less starts at the bottom of page 2.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...p;start=20
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thatvwbusguy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using LittleFuse MIDI/AMI fuses for a while on most projects that require 10AWG or larger wiring. They are tough, don't require the need for a mounting bracket and can be found in 30A-200A ratings.

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I am currently waiting for some high quality 1" 4:1 heat shrink to arrive that will make a nice weather resistant encasing for the entire fuse and holder when installing in exterior mounting locations like the starter stud to ACR installation that works well when installing the auxiliary battery under the rear seat. This setup would also work for people who like to fuse the main feed from the alternator.

For installations where you would like the MIDI fuse holder secured to something, a standard screw down cable tie does a great job.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the Blue Sea web site, I see that they have a wire sizing and fuse sizing page.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/application_briefs/app_brief_selecting_fuse.pdf

If the Vanagon is only running a 90amp alternator than sizing for a 100amp requires #2 gauge wire and 150 amp fuses.
Sounds like a plan! How can you go wrong when you do what the manufcturer tells you to do?

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Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thatvwbusguy wrote:
I have been using LittleFuse MIDI/AMI fuses for a while on most projects that require 10AWG or larger wiring. They are tough, don't require the need for a mounting bracket and can be found in 30A-200A ratings.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am currently waiting for some high quality 1" 4:1 heat shrink to arrive that will make a nice weather resistant encasing for the entire fuse and holder when installing in exterior mounting locations like the starter stud to ACR installation that works well when installing the auxiliary battery under the rear seat. This setup would also work for people who like to fuse the main feed from the alternator.

For installations where you would like the MIDI fuse holder secured to something, a standard screw down cable tie does a great job.


I do like those fuses! I'll be locating some soon.
Thanks for posting this info.

Will the MIDI be the fuse of choice or the larger MEGA?

Here is the MEGA fuse..........
Littelfuse web page....... Ideal for protecting batteries and alternators.......

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datas...asheet.pdf

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



And the fuse holder case........

MIDI....
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datas...e_midi.pdf

MEGA......
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datas...hproof.pdf

MIDI
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


MEGA
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont know if this is a good idea to fuse the ground circuit. if the fuse blows dosnt this leave potential on the rest of the circuit, which could lead to other problems. i would double check that with the manufacturer.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pushkick wrote:
i dont know if this is a good idea to fuse the ground circuit. if the fuse blows dosnt this leave potential on the rest of the circuit, which could lead to other problems. i would double check that with the manufacturer.


Yeah, I thought that odd as well.
I'm obviously no electrical genious but I'm thinking that it's a boat thing?

Dave
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thatvwbusguy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue Sea Systems recommends a 10-15A inline fuse on the ground wire "in the unlikely event that there is a fault in the ACR internal circuitry that allows fault current to flow from the high powered positive leads to the negative reference wire".

https://www.bluesea.com/resources/540

Since the ground wire is only used to ground the coil of the relay, it can be much smaller than the main wires to the A&B posts. Without a fuse installed on the ground wire, the ground wire itself would become a crude sort of fusible link, where the wire melts once it surpasses its maximum ampacity.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

since i dont know the internals of this device there is alot of unknowns here. if there is some failure that would put any chance of potential on the circuit after the fuse blows this is a dangerous practice. the reason fuses are used in control or power circuits is to eliminate the source of power not remove grounds. grounds are used to divert power to provide protection to people. if you want me to cite the NFPA regulations and standard practices i can.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in the process of upgrading my setup to include solar as well. Have pretty much what is described here, Aux battery wired with 100A fuse to blue seas ACR, other side of the ACR fused to starting battery. It Has been working flawlessly for several years running TF49, interior lights, charging laptops etc.

However looking to boost the stationary power for when camped in the desert for more than a day or two.

So my simple question is this: Do i wire my solar/charge controller in to the aux battery direct? and then if and when it gets topped up by the solar, the ACR will switch the charge to the starter battery? Presumably dont even need to worry about the starter battery in the situation i described anyway?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apples and oranges. These are automotive 12v DC circuits. In automotive 12v DC power circuits the ground isn't for protection of people. The ground functions as an active element that carries full current. There are times when a fuse is needed on a ground for protection.

In AC power circuits the ground carries no current unless there is a fault of some kind. Then the ground is an emergency alternate path for current to take so the circuit breaker will trip and so that a human doesn't become the alternate path and suffer a shock or worse. Having a fuse on an AC ground would be a no no.

In addition lots of automotive 12v DC power circuits have no fuse protection even on the live supply wire and this would simply not be allowed in AC power wiring. If you would care to see an example of the VW factory putting fuses on grounds simply look at Bentley page 97.140, bottom of the page current tracks 7 and 8.

Mark

pushkick wrote:
since i dont know the internals of this device there is alot of unknowns here. if there is some failure that would put any chance of potential on the circuit after the fuse blows this is a dangerous practice. the reason fuses are used in control or power circuits is to eliminate the source of power not remove grounds. grounds are used to divert power to provide protection to people. if you want me to cite the NFPA regulations and standard practices i can.
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