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E85 "broke" my electric fuel pump?
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: E85 "broke" my electric fuel pump? Reply with quote

This is kind of funny. I've ran this pump for a few months with pump gas, ran fine. Put E85 in the tank on Friday and discovered a leak on Sunday. Here is what the pump does:


Link


The box it came in has a "Kuhltek MotorWerks" sticker on it, and Part Number is AC127202B. Is it worth trying to replace it at local VW shop where I got it, or you think it's safer to get a different pump? What works with E85?

Stan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great thing about working at parts counters over the years, is you get to see all the "defects" customers bring in. I have never seen one fail like that. I will say for every ten of those Carter in line pumps I've seen come back, maybe one or so of the Facet box type pumps had some sort of problem. I've yet to kill any version of the Facet pump. Usually the Carter just quits or makes noise and nothing happens.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have found the inherent issue with E85 that I am aware of. It eats any seals or rubber in your pumps and fuel system. Do E85 they said........it'll be fun they said. Right. IMO, it's going to be a 'wear' item for you with E85, unless you can find on specifically set up for it. E85 is harsh to say the least on any rubber product.
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had 2 Facet square pumps in the past. They both worked very well but were LOUD. This thing is a good amount quieter, can't really hear it once the engine is started. But, the leak is pretty hilarious.

With only a few days of playing with E85, I will say I love the fact that I can't make the car knock even though I'm still very lean. But, casualties are starting to show up lol.

Anyone running one of these with E85? http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Rotary-Electric-Fuel-Pump-3-25-psi-7mm-Fittings-p/rotary.htm?CartID=1

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midtravelmidengine
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure that as E85 becomes more commonplace, you will start to see more E85 frienldly item come available.

But we get fun stuff like this in the meantime Very Happy
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That pump looks CHEAP! I don't trust em.

as said, faucet pumps are great. Never run e-85 through one tho. I ran e-85 through a carter for 6 months a while back and that pump still works, and is 6 or 7 years old!!
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cdennisg
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we actually talking about E85, or 10-15% ethanol blend? I would expect to make major mods to an air cooled VW's fuel and intake system and ignition/cam timing to run E85. I would guess that the internal parts of that fuel pump are not designed for E85.
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stan_tichomirov wrote:


Anyone running one of these with E85? http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Rotary-Electric-Fuel-Pump-3-25-psi-7mm-Fittings-p/rotary.htm?CartID=1

Stan


That "looks" like a carter and probably is, tho it'd be nice to say so.
Yep, should work fine. Only weakness is they jam on even tiny particles, thus the included filter!


Last edited by modok on Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of our pump gas has has had 10% of ethanol for many years now, since MTBE got replaced by it, I'm talking real E85. I'm re-jetting my IDFs and tuning timing via Black Box. I have to wonder if the pump was failing prior and alcohol finished it off.

ACN's pump looks like the CB pump.

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Last edited by stan_tichomirov on Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Hotrodvw
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That pump would require me to use hose clamps....I hate hose clamps. No bueno floor me LOL
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cdennisg
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am all too familiar with the 10% ethanol fuel blends. I just wanted to make sure there was no confusion, as I have seen many mentions of E85 when the subject was actually E10.

Hope you get it figured out. I am curious to see what mods and adjustments need to be made to run on E85.
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far, very few. Idles from 50 to 55, mains from 130 to 150, couple more degrees of timing in 1,000-1,200 RPM range, reset idle mixture and idle speed, changed wideband to read in Lambda. Car ran, very lean, but ran. Swings very lean on transition, but did at least 40 miles of freeway and did not overheat. Waiting on larger jets to keep experimenting (and a new pump lol).

Have not heard a single knock. At WOT it's lean, but it revved higher than it did previously on 91 octane and felt pretty light. I will continue to experiment, and if it goes well I'll proceed with building this new engine I'm working on with 9.8:1 compression instead of figuring out how to lower it to run pump gas.

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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, help me understand this -- did something blow internally, or is that rubber grommet the only thing that's supposed to keep fuel in? I mean, at least if it were JBWelded.. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I'm certain there are some rubber seals in the pump that have dissolved. The ethanol just dissolves rubber like crazy.
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something in that pump has failed, but the change to E85 is far more likely co-incidental to the problem. Alcohol doesn't "dissolve rubber like crazy," though over time it can cause incompatible rubber to fail or can expose decayed rubber - I just wouldn't expect such a leak like that to occur so quickly unless it was already leaking and it became more obvious. Alcohol is a less powerful solvent than many of the components of regular gas, so anything that dissolves in it would dissolve anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say what you want, but I get hippys in my shop every day wanting to swap to E85 or veggie oil. It sweats thru the rubber, and will cause failures. I've asked many of my auto techs that I deal with about fuel pump failures...........it all started when the ethanol was introduced into our fuels here a few yrs ago. Bear in mind, we only have 10% ethanol. 85% is going to cause a failure.
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you mean hippies, foil-head? It only "sweats" through worn out hose, which was usually vulcanised rubber which was failing anyway. Alcohol has been used for racing for many years without these problems, so the issue was inferior products being fitted, or the hose being 30 or more years old (pretty much any rubber will fail in this time.) Certainly there is no conceivable way the E85 caused the failure above on it's first tankful. If compression is raised accordingly, E85 can increase the output of your engine by 25-30%
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong. E85 will sweat with in a month or so. I've seen it first hand. I never said it will dissolve anything immediately. Bear in mind, most guys that switch to E85 now want a clear hose that will allow them to see air bubbles. The clear hose is the worst for sweating.
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My hoses are holding up so far, there aren't many of them to monitor so that's pretty easy. Cheap plastic filters are holding up too, though I really hate those things. Pump, I'm pretty sure was just a POS to begin with. Time will tell.

Stan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quokka42 wrote:
Did you mean hippies, foil-head? It only "sweats" through worn out hose, which was usually vulcanised rubber which was failing anyway. Alcohol has been used for racing for many years without these problems, so the issue was inferior products being fitted, or the hose being 30 or more years old (pretty much any rubber will fail in this time.) Certainly there is no conceivable way the E85 caused the failure above on it's first tankful. If compression is raised accordingly, E85 can increase the output of your engine by 25-30%


I work at a hot rod shop with some very expensi[ve cars. If the car will be running pump gas, it ONLY gets teflon based fuel hose. No rubber at all, any brand. I make hoses everyday, we are an XRP dealer, and straight from their catalog it states to use teflon fuel hose when in doubt of fuel/hose compatabilty. Are they selling 30 year old rubber hose? Some of us are dealing with this ethanol issue on a daily basis, we aren't delusional.
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