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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:33 pm Post subject: Im a big kid now. First engine build |
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Hi there everybody. This is my first post on the samba as I usually just lurk around for information haha. I want to get some input on this build im trying to put together soon. A 1776 going into my daily driver 71 square. The wagon is also the band mobile when we play gigs. so we got a nice load to haul on the freeway. My city is pretty hilly in some places and the freeway on the way to School is also a big hill in some parts. This is the combo I want to assemble.
1776cc build:
Dual relief case bored accordingly
Heads off my current engine ported and polished
engle 100 or 110 cam( leaning toward 110)
1.25 or 1.4 rockers (cant decide)
forged counterweighted crank
lightened flywheel
dual 34 webers(I already run them)
Already running headers from previous owner.
stinger or quietpack exhaust ( I have both)
Want to run medium pump gas
I just want some input on this combo. And to kbow if my budget is achievable. Im hoping to hit 80 hp. Oh and im on a budget of around 2 grand. But since im using original heads and the carbs I already have I would like it all around 1200 just for parts. I might buy a used case to build off of then throw the heads on right before swapping the engines. |
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stan_tichomirov Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2005 Posts: 1719 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds neat. Consider using a Web 118 cam, it may work a little better with your single-throat carbs. You could also build an 1835 with the thick-wall cylinders that fit in the 90.5 case, works pretty well.
Stan _________________ Aircooled.net
Jansen Enterprise
My 1835cc build
My budget 2276 build |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the quick reply! How is it comparable to a 110? More low end? |
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Howard 111 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like a nice combo. If you decide to go with the 1.40 rockers, I would suggest the FK-65 cam. Nice bottom end torque. _________________ 1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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I like the idea of the low end torque but the kid inside me wants to be able to mess around a bit with the mid range |
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stan_tichomirov Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2005 Posts: 1719 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Web 118 should be similar to an Engle 110, a bit more duration and a bit less lift. I have an 1835 with a Web 163 with is a bit larger and there is lots of torque available, you should be ok. Since it's a square, the thick-wall 92s may not be a bad idea, but do investigate.
Stan _________________ Aircooled.net
Jansen Enterprise
My 1835cc build
My budget 2276 build
Last edited by stan_tichomirov on Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TinCanFab Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 2743 Location: Waterford, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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'71 square wrote: |
I like the idea of the low end torque but the kid inside me wants to be able to mess around a bit with the mid range |
I built a 1776 with 110 and 34 ICT's. It was real fun in a bug. Mileage was great as well. Idled very nice with a single quiet pack exhaust. Lot's of power over a 1600, but I only ran stock rockers. Mid range was exactly like I expected. It had no power until I did some jetting though. ICT's are a little small already for an engine this size unless you keep the mods to a minumum. _________________ Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sweet thanks for the input. Looks lile ive got some decisions to make with the can and rocker combo |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Roachdub58, what kind of heads did you run? |
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stan_tichomirov Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2005 Posts: 1719 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Web 218 is also worth a look, I ran one in a 1641 with ICTs/40IDFs and ACN L3 heads and it had a good amount of torque available.
Stan _________________ Aircooled.net
Jansen Enterprise
My 1835cc build
My budget 2276 build |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Id love to get new heads but ive got to work with what I got. Being a college student and musician takes a toll on the budget lol.
Just to tease/get the building juices flowing: do you guys ever let the wheels spin if possible? Haha |
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TinCanFab Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 2743 Location: Waterford, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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They were "041" heads 39x32 IIRC. It was a stock bottom end so I never revved it to 5K RPM. I doubt they outperformed any stock dual port heads. Mine were just bolted on, no mods. I remember setting the carbs up per Aircooled.nets instructions, it ran great but no power. I was only able to go about 45mph up a grade.
As soon as I got home, I used my jet reamer kit and barely enlarged one of the jets. I don't remember exactly which one, but it was either the idle or main jet. One tiny change and that thing screamed up the RPM range and any hill. Before running the ICT's, the engine had a single IDF Weber, so I had a good seat of the pants dyno to compare the difference. The day I made that jet change was the day I fell in love with dual carbs. I will NEVER run a single carb on a performance engine again. Ever. _________________ Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thats awesome! Defenitly will look into that after putting it all together.
So far with p/c's, connecting rods, crank, and cam im lookin at just under 900. If I can find a cool used 90.5 case for a few hundred, thatll bring me right around where I want to be. Plus all the odds and ends and head porting and polishing, I think I should be under 1500. |
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Woody Gee Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2012 Posts: 125 Location: Wyoming-5000 ft altitude
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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As a suggestion, when your figuring costs do some "what ifs". If your buying a CW crank, then buy a crank, how about an 82 or 84mm or at least a 78? Boring the case for barrels?? Costs the same for 94 as it does for 90.5.
Want mid range torque?? Then cubic inches is your friend. The difference between a little 1776 and a 2180-2275-2332 is night and day. Even with the smaller heads. You will then have a solid base for when you upgrade to 44idfs or bigger heads.
My car pulls hard in fourth gear from 40mph to 55mph with just a squeeze of the go pedal even though my combination is surely not optimized for that sort of thing. A 1776 would have to be in third and flat to the floor to keep up, all things being equal
The difference in costs is not that much. Just a thought _________________ His: 74 standard bug, 2332 squishie, FK46, L7,
currently installing CB gen 4 Turbo/FI
Hers: 67 bug project, 2332 in boxes, FK44, L6
theirs: 62 2110 turbo drag car
floor sweep motor 12.98 @107
In my research I have discovered that senility is painless. |
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GTV Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004 Posts: 2084 Location: Si'ahl
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, if you are going to build an engine you might as well go 2276
Since this is your first engine and you are under a budget I recommend keeping it simple. Thick wall 92's are a great idea for a type 3. Counterweighted stock stroke crank, lightened flywheel. Web Cam 218 (it's between a 100 and a 110 with a bit more lift). Stock 1.1:1 rockers. Some nicely ported stock valve heads. Your carbs are going to be the bottleneck if your engine is anything above stock. They will work but I would plan on upgrading to a pair of 42 DCNF's in the future. You will easily hit your 80hp goal and have a very very reliable and under stressed engine. _________________ EMPI Power Rules! |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13843 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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My 1776cc recipe.
69mm counter weighted crank
90.5 pistons
40 x 35.5 ported polished heads
Scat C-25 cam with 1.4 rockers
Topped with 40mm Kadron carbs
To the ground on a Dyno @ 5200 feet is 67.4 HP
You engine will be comparable. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well im trying not to have to go full flow. Also I figure a used case with stroker crank clearancing a used case will cost more. I can go to 2027 after I get bigger carbs and crank so im trying to just do a good job with something smaller. Haha . I completely understand what you mean by go big or go home |
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'71 square Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2014 Posts: 49 Location: vallejo, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Also I feel like not getting better heads will ruin a bigger engine. At least that is what has been drilled in my head every time I talked to a older guy with a bunch of money to spare. I dont have an extra 700 to drop on heads. I know its really how our engines make power but I just dont have the budget. And ive been told by so many people to wait till I can build it right. I know alot of you have been in the position of a poor college student haha |
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57BLITZ Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012 Posts: 2385 Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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GTV Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004 Posts: 2084 Location: Si'ahl
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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'71 square wrote: |
Well im trying not to have to go full flow.
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Forget it. Type 3's need all of the cooling help they can get. You will need to ad an external oil cooler for what you are doing, for that you will have to full flow the case.
The heads are where the power is made. Sure, it will run on stock heads, but you will be leaving a lot of power on the table. You don't need to spend $700 for a good set of heads.
Spend your money wisely and you can build this engine. Do as much as you can yourself. Forget stroker cranks, high ratio rockers, and big valve heads. Keep it simple.
To give you an idea on power, I built a type 3 1776 back in the day (before thick wall 92's) with stock valve ported heads, FK65 with 1.4 rockers, 8:1, 42 DCNF's and a 1 3/8" header. It made 75hp and would cruise at 75+ all day long, still averaged about 25mpg. But I HAD to have an external cooler, no getting around it. _________________ EMPI Power Rules! |
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