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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51156
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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 Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Those who expect to simply "bolt" something on to an engine expecting immediate improvment with no extra effort whatsoever....are the problem. Not the bolt on part. Ray |
Exactly, there's quite a few things that can be done to improve performance but none are an afternoon job and all require multiple other items to work with as well as proper setup of the whole package.
Just popping in a new distributor or adding a chrome aircleaner is usually a downgrade in the big picture and doesn't add any noticeable power.
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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It is understandable that someone wants a simple path to better performance on any car.
I built and tuned racing engines for many years and one week spent a few days with Mac Tilton on an engine dyno trying to get a few extra HP from our engines. Mac was building Paul Newman's cars at the time.
We made one run and Mac looked at the plugs - too rich he said. Go an air jet leaner. We looked at the plugs and said - Mac, how can you know that? He said - the glue isn't bubbling yet.
Huh? Well it turns out that in that period of time it wasn't well known but the glue champion used in their plugs started bubbling as it began to melt at the exact temperature that gave the best HP on a water cooled engine. it would too on an air cooled engine but it is too hot for an air cooled engine on the street.
What has this to do with bolt on performance? What good is it if you don't know how to get the most out of what you already have?
Bill asked me once do you want me to swirl polish your valves? I said what is that? He said come here and I will show you. Put that valve in the solvent stream so the solvent runs down the stem onto the back of the valve. Then as it hits the lip of the back of the valve it sprays everywhere. Air at high speed acts the same way and creates a huge hole behind the valve. Then he swirl polished a valve in about 2 minutes work. Try it now he said. I did - the stream wrapped around the valve like it wasn't even there. Amazing. How can you push more air into a cylinder if there is a dam in the way?
So I ask again - What good is bolt on performance if you don't know how to get the most out of what you already have?
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Busdriver79
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Joined: July 22, 2011
Posts: 1655
Location: The Peoples' Republic of "No" Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Adjust the valves, check the compression, set the timing to spec, adjust the carb, replace the ign wires, put in new spark plugs, points and condenser, change the gas filter, and be sure the belt is adjusted correctly, and finally change the engine oil and air cleaner oil, being careful to use the recommended viscosity, and then you will have a well tuned engine....never overspeed the engine, and never lug it in the wrong gear...the most you can expect from this engine will be dependability, and a long life before an overhaul is needed....try to get the most out of this engine before blindly bolting on any gizmo that "guarantees more horsepower"....the only way to significantly increase hp is to increase displacement, hotter cam, more compression, and greater airflow via cylinder head mods and larger or more carbs...these are not "bolt ons", but a completely different engine...if you choose to go this route, have plenty of money, the more the better...'cause you're gonna spend plenty !  |
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chimneyfish
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Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 881
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Bolt it on
Link
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6986
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Busdriver79 wrote: |
| more carbs...these are not "bolt ons" |
Not sure how your carbs are attached to the heads but mine are bolted on. "More carbs", pretty sure that's one of the bolt ons he's asking about.
Everyone is right, no matter how much you polish a 1600 it's gonna be a turd. But there's nothing wrong with upgrading some of the components for a better turd experience.
Ok, so my question is...why aren't you running a merged header now? That's the easiest thing to swap out and...you will defently notice a difference. Asiab3 shouldn't dog an exhaust upgrade, he runs a VS on his 1600. I ran a well tuned basic 1600 for 2 years with a merged header, it was great. Dual carbs would have made the experience better, but still slow. There should be a official distributer thread.
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richparker
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Location: Durango, CO
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richparker
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| rich parker wrote: |
| asiab3 shouldn't dog an exhaust upgrade, he runs a VS on his 1600. |
Not anymore- that was a short experiment for a few months. All stock now. It was a most excellent bolt-on upgrade that just amplified my irritation with my current engine. It drives like a dream but is too damn loud. It's mostly from being assembled with zero balancing, so the addition of a throaty muscle-car exhaust tone doesn't help me. It will go back on the new engine once I have it dialed in.
| Quote: |
| no matter how much you polish a 1600 it's gonna be a turd |
Rich, you REALLY need to drive my 1600 
Robbie
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| sodbuster wrote: |
| I don't want to step on any toes here but were you joking? |
no worries, but not kidding. its similar to how I still keep a first aid kit and my boy scout manual handy for everyday driving. Be prepared.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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There is not a bus or a type 4 out there than cannot benefit from a "good" exhaust upgrade.
Sorry....but its true. The stock muffler system is a well built POS of design. Its a restrictive compromise. However ther are no cheap alternatives. And every exhaust change while being a bolt on product (generally)....requires significant tuning, changes to realize the benefits. All of the stock type 4 mufflers are hot running heat magnets.
The fact that they allow "correct-ish" running with stock settings does not change the fact that t hey are restrictive and bank heat.
But anything better that either is an extractor or free flowing, or made to be correct for the facyory-esque application is expensive. That is not the fault of the part. Its reality.
And its bolt on.....and it exists....and you will have to tune for it. Ray |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
But anything better that either is an extractor or free flowing, or made to be correct for the facyory-esque application is expensive. That is not the fault of the part. Its reality.
And its bolt on.....and it exists....and you will have to tune for it. Ray |
Absolutely. A jet swap is part of an exhaust system change, weather we like it or not. Any time the flow of air in or out of the heads changes, the fuel map will change. But I doubt someone looking for bolt on performance is going to methodically monitor and change the jets one by one to get a perfect blend of power, economy, and longevity.
| Quote: |
| The stock muffler system is a well built POS of design. Its a restrictive compromise. |
It is not the muffler these cars needed, but it is the muffler they deserved. Emissions requirements were really getting piled on automakers around '68-'74; VW did what they had to do to meet them while providing excellent drivability with one system per car for every country on the planet. The factory equipment with careful maintenance could handle the heat. I've always speculated that the restrictions limited power production, which kept these cars alive when 16 year-old Timmy floors his parents' new VW across the desert all summer.
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Hoody
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Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:48 am Post subject: |
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6986
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="asiab3"]
| rich parker wrote: |
| Quote: |
| no matter how much you polish a 1600 it's gonna be a turd |
Rich, you REALLY need to drive my 1600 |
I have no doubt that your 1600 runs great and has plenty of pep. I felt that mine was also a nice running 1600 but...there's no comparison between the power of a 1600 and the power of a big engine especially at altitude.
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udidwht
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Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
But anything better that either is an extractor or free flowing, or made to be correct for the facyory-esque application is expensive. That is not the fault of the part. Its reality.
And its bolt on.....and it exists....and you will have to tune for it. Ray |
Absolutely. A jet swap is part of an exhaust system change, weather we like it or not. Any time the flow of air in or out of the heads changes, the fuel map will change. But I doubt someone looking for bolt on performance is going to methodically monitor and change the jets one by one to get a perfect blend of power, economy, and longevity.
| Quote: |
| The stock muffler system is a well built POS of design. Its a restrictive compromise. |
It is not the muffler these cars needed, but it is the muffler they deserved. Emissions requirements were really getting piled on automakers around '68-'74; VW did what they had to do to meet them while providing excellent drivability with one system per car for every country on the planet. The factory equipment with careful maintenance could handle the heat. I've always speculated that the restrictions limited power production, which kept these cars alive when 16 year-old Timmy floors his parents' new VW across the desert all summer. |
It's one of a few reasons why so many dropped or burnt valves back in the hay days of these T-4 buses.
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mojogoat
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Joined: February 25, 2013
Posts: 440
Location: Norcal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Don't overlook weight reduction. There is a formula something like 1 hp =?lbs
so avoid MDF and burritos.
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TomWesty
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Joined: November 23, 2007
Posts: 3482
Location: Wyoming,USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| mojogoat wrote: |
Don't overlook weight reduction. There is a formula something like 1 hp =?lbs
so avoid MDF and burritos. |
X2
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kevlarian
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Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:52 am Post subject: |
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I have been looking at multiple post on this forum, and I see so many "bolt on" upgrades to the is 1600. It appears that I am not the only one that believes in this bolt on snake oil.
Even in this very thread we have people that can show improvements with bolt on's. |
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Let's face it. Bolt on is fun and I'm not talking about silicone breasts either. I remember years ago sitting in a business class in college and glancing through the catalogs looking at VW parts. One difference back then was the quality of parts was much better. EMPI actually stood for something. Then it all went to hell when the vendors turned towards China.
Anyway, it's fun to browse and order parts for our buses. The thing is that we've all done that already and learned from it. You new guys could save a bit of money and buy the correct parts the first time if you listen to the advice hear.
Years ago I that my Bosch 009 actually worked pretty well. Today I wouldn't buy one. Why? China.
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: |
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I like looking at all the little shiny bits you can buy in the catalogs.
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