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Fuel injection pros and cons?
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type149
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Fuel injection pros and cons? Reply with quote

I've been trying to wrap my skills and mind around trying fuel injection. I don't really understand the specifics of the different systems. I do find that fuel injection seems to add to the reliability of our engines. I know that a good system cam be pieced together from donor cars and be reliable. What are the draw backs and things that I will need to learn in order to make a decision on whether I want to dive into a fuel injection conversion?
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember when VW first came out with it in the Type 3's! I remember getting into a new fastback and stepping on the gas and nothing happening! Good 32 MPG though!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I converted a jeep inline 6 over from carburetion to fuel injection using a combination of factory parts and a megasquirt controller. Like a flat 4 vw motor it suffers from having the intake ports far apart, making fuel distribution difficult. The difference was like night and day. The engine gained torque and throttle response, more power and better fuel economy. It is the superior tuning ability of fuel injection that sells me on it.
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itHaKa
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cons:
you need to an ecu , that can fail and leave you walking
you need to run the gas line back to the tank
more wires are needed, tps , map , intake temp
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cost and the need for basic wiring and computer skills are the only cons in my opinion. The more you know about it, the cheaper it can be.... There's quite a few sharp guys on here that have made parts themselves and used junkyard parts. To take advantage of the injection, you really want to learn how to tune it with a laptop. Your wiring connections, labeling and routing have to be top notch as well. If you half-ass it, the car will be a nightmare to troubleshoot down the road.

In the 90's, my auto shop teacher (automotive genius) retrofitted his son's squareback fuel injection system with a complete V8 Ford system. It ran great and was basically free for him to do.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is where the VW EFI Guru's hang out....

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=23

This is the place to start your adventure...

Dale
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One bad wire or electrical connection or sensor failure and your walking home. I've had carbs sputter, spit, cough and backfire and still be able to limp home.
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole "one bad connection/sensor" argument is a cop out for folks that don't have any interest in trying FI. There are so many single point failures in cars (even carb'ed ones) that it totally negates the argument IMO. Just be honest, your just not interested FI... nothing wrong with that.

To those who are interested, there are a lot of options and benifits to be had. It takes some work, but if you've got the interest, go for it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I have had carbed cars fail even to the point of me walking home, one sunk float, clogged jet, torn gasket, and you could be walking home. I've had injected cars sputter, spit, cough, and back fire and never once has the injection caused me to walk home.

I like the simplicity of the D-jet cars, on pancake type III motors, (and 914 type IV motors) Modern ones like on my Vanagon (Digifant) are also nice.
there are of course the last bugs that had injection, both the german in the late 1970's and finally the Mexican as the last Bugs rolled off the production line.
There are lots of aftermarket ones too.

If you run a stock motor I would figure you likely wont see much of a performance gain difference verses going to dual carbs, except your mileage might be a little better.

The injection system I have worked on are very easy, the ecu's rarely ever fail unless you short something out. the number of sensors can often by counted on one hand, and wires are easy to trace and test with a simple ohm or volt meter. The whole concept is very easy to understand, and work on and trouble shoot.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Megasquirt FI has a Bosch TPS from a Volvo, Injectors, fuel pump and Filter from the same Volvo, plus a coolant sensor and intake air sensor common on many GM products. The GM sensors are available from most parts stores and if not in stock can be ordered in one day.
Most TPS sensors are pretty well bulletproof.

My IAT sensor went bad but it never caused the engine to quit. In fact, I couldn't really tell that it was bad except it showed up in a log and I even have a turbo which heats up the air.

If you are really concerned you could do MS-1 with the Ford EDIS Module and get limp-home mode for ignition too but most all the EFI and parts are just as reliable as any production car on the road now.

Do your homework..... a nice, tidy and well thought out wiring harness with quality connections and you will have no troubles.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No cons, all pros .... I stopped messing with carbs over 20 years ago ..
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. I have a squareback with a 1679cc in it. I have been wanting to upgrade from the carbs that are on it. I think it would be a fun car to start on. It is a '66, so a carbureted car to start. My engine is set up with conservative compression and an Engle 110 cam. I'll have a look over on the other site for some ideas. What kind of budget would I be looking at for a project like this?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how simple the installation can be with MS...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you are interested in MS or just want to learn something...

http://www.megamanual.com/MSFAQ.htm

Dale
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went through the better part of a grand initially. But soo much depends on what you can do and source yourself.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=132864&start=15

http://www.maxwelton2k.net/squareback68/MST3/

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
One bad wire or electrical connection or sensor failure and your walking home. I've had carbs sputter, spit, cough and backfire and still be able to limp home.


x2
in my case, i had "NOISE" and my ecu was resetting badly
had to walk home .
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run a CB Turbo/FI setup, and what struck me the most was looking down the 48mm throttle bodies. It's just a 48mm, air eating tube with nothing but the butterflies visible. I've had 48mm IDF, and 48mm DRLA, but there is no comparison. I love FI.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FI haters gonna hate no matter what, I can smell the jealousy right through my screen. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, STF really is the better place to have an FI conversation.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

itHaKa wrote:
vwracerdave wrote:
One bad wire or electrical connection or sensor failure and your walking home. I've had carbs sputter, spit, cough and backfire and still be able to limp home.


x2
in my case, i had "NOISE" and my ecu was resetting badly
had to walk home .


Again, the whole one bad wire/connection argument is cop out in my opinion...

No disrespect, but condemning an EFI system due to noise issues is akin to condemning carbs because the floats are set wrong or the throttles are not in sync. Neither system (carb or efi) will work worth a flip if the person holding the tools doesn't set it up correctly.

It's all about preference.. Some folks just aren't interested in EFI, and that's ok. But some of the "reasons" cast from both sides on the subject are many times nonsensical

Again I'll say, if someone is interested in EFI, and I mean GENUINLY interested in it, then go for it and have fun. There are TONS of benifits to be had. That said, if your interested cause you think it will fix all your problems and work just like a charm at the first turn of the key, don't bother as you'll surely be dissapointed. All good things take effort to setup correctly.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not about hating. FI is simply not cost effective in a VW compared to the price of carbs. Add in the cost of a laptop if you do not already own one.

One bad wire or electrical connection and your walking home.
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