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type149 Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2014 Posts: 4 Location: Tuck
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:10 pm Post subject: Fuel injection pros and cons? |
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I've been trying to wrap my skills and mind around trying fuel injection. I don't really understand the specifics of the different systems. I do find that fuel injection seems to add to the reliability of our engines. I know that a good system cam be pieced together from donor cars and be reliable. What are the draw backs and things that I will need to learn in order to make a decision on whether I want to dive into a fuel injection conversion? |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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I remember when VW first came out with it in the Type 3's! I remember getting into a new fastback and stepping on the gas and nothing happening! Good 32 MPG though! _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Northof49 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013 Posts: 1759 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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I converted a jeep inline 6 over from carburetion to fuel injection using a combination of factory parts and a megasquirt controller. Like a flat 4 vw motor it suffers from having the intake ports far apart, making fuel distribution difficult. The difference was like night and day. The engine gained torque and throttle response, more power and better fuel economy. It is the superior tuning ability of fuel injection that sells me on it. _________________ 1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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itHaKa Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2008 Posts: 254 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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cons:
you need to an ecu , that can fail and leave you walking
you need to run the gas line back to the tank
more wires are needed, tps , map , intake temp _________________ 76x88 , 1849cc engine build :
http://mundoescarabajo.com.ar/me/viewtopic.php?t=635 |
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TinCanFab Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 2743 Location: Waterford, California
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Cost and the need for basic wiring and computer skills are the only cons in my opinion. The more you know about it, the cheaper it can be.... There's quite a few sharp guys on here that have made parts themselves and used junkyard parts. To take advantage of the injection, you really want to learn how to tune it with a laptop. Your wiring connections, labeling and routing have to be top notch as well. If you half-ass it, the car will be a nightmare to troubleshoot down the road.
In the 90's, my auto shop teacher (automotive genius) retrofitted his son's squareback fuel injection system with a complete V8 Ford system. It ran great and was basically free for him to do. _________________ Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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This is where the VW EFI Guru's hang out....
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=23
This is the place to start your adventure...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15278 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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One bad wire or electrical connection or sensor failure and your walking home. I've had carbs sputter, spit, cough and backfire and still be able to limp home. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Vee Dub Nut Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Dallas, GA
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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The whole "one bad connection/sensor" argument is a cop out for folks that don't have any interest in trying FI. There are so many single point failures in cars (even carb'ed ones) that it totally negates the argument IMO. Just be honest, your just not interested FI... nothing wrong with that.
To those who are interested, there are a lot of options and benifits to be had. It takes some work, but if you've got the interest, go for it. _________________ Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Of course I have had carbed cars fail even to the point of me walking home, one sunk float, clogged jet, torn gasket, and you could be walking home. I've had injected cars sputter, spit, cough, and back fire and never once has the injection caused me to walk home.
I like the simplicity of the D-jet cars, on pancake type III motors, (and 914 type IV motors) Modern ones like on my Vanagon (Digifant) are also nice.
there are of course the last bugs that had injection, both the german in the late 1970's and finally the Mexican as the last Bugs rolled off the production line.
There are lots of aftermarket ones too.
If you run a stock motor I would figure you likely wont see much of a performance gain difference verses going to dual carbs, except your mileage might be a little better.
The injection system I have worked on are very easy, the ecu's rarely ever fail unless you short something out. the number of sensors can often by counted on one hand, and wires are easy to trace and test with a simple ohm or volt meter. The whole concept is very easy to understand, and work on and trouble shoot. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4026 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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My Megasquirt FI has a Bosch TPS from a Volvo, Injectors, fuel pump and Filter from the same Volvo, plus a coolant sensor and intake air sensor common on many GM products. The GM sensors are available from most parts stores and if not in stock can be ordered in one day.
Most TPS sensors are pretty well bulletproof.
My IAT sensor went bad but it never caused the engine to quit. In fact, I couldn't really tell that it was bad except it showed up in a log and I even have a turbo which heats up the air.
If you are really concerned you could do MS-1 with the Ford EDIS Module and get limp-home mode for ignition too but most all the EFI and parts are just as reliable as any production car on the road now.
Do your homework..... a nice, tidy and well thought out wiring harness with quality connections and you will have no troubles. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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raul arrese Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2006 Posts: 1329 Location: miami florida
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type149 Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2014 Posts: 4 Location: Tuck
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I have a squareback with a 1679cc in it. I have been wanting to upgrade from the carbs that are on it. I think it would be a fun car to start on. It is a '66, so a carbureted car to start. My engine is set up with conservative compression and an Engle 110 cam. I'll have a look over on the other site for some ideas. What kind of budget would I be looking at for a project like this? |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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This is how simple the installation can be with MS...
If you are interested in MS or just want to learn something...
http://www.megamanual.com/MSFAQ.htm
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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itHaKa Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2008 Posts: 254 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
One bad wire or electrical connection or sensor failure and your walking home. I've had carbs sputter, spit, cough and backfire and still be able to limp home. |
x2
in my case, i had "NOISE" and my ecu was resetting badly
had to walk home . _________________ 76x88 , 1849cc engine build :
http://mundoescarabajo.com.ar/me/viewtopic.php?t=635 |
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Howard 111 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I run a CB Turbo/FI setup, and what struck me the most was looking down the 48mm throttle bodies. It's just a 48mm, air eating tube with nothing but the butterflies visible. I've had 48mm IDF, and 48mm DRLA, but there is no comparison. I love FI. _________________ 1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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FI haters gonna hate no matter what, I can smell the jealousy right through my screen. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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Vee Dub Nut Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Dallas, GA
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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itHaKa wrote: |
vwracerdave wrote: |
One bad wire or electrical connection or sensor failure and your walking home. I've had carbs sputter, spit, cough and backfire and still be able to limp home. |
x2
in my case, i had "NOISE" and my ecu was resetting badly
had to walk home . |
Again, the whole one bad wire/connection argument is cop out in my opinion...
No disrespect, but condemning an EFI system due to noise issues is akin to condemning carbs because the floats are set wrong or the throttles are not in sync. Neither system (carb or efi) will work worth a flip if the person holding the tools doesn't set it up correctly.
It's all about preference.. Some folks just aren't interested in EFI, and that's ok. But some of the "reasons" cast from both sides on the subject are many times nonsensical
Again I'll say, if someone is interested in EFI, and I mean GENUINLY interested in it, then go for it and have fun. There are TONS of benifits to be had. That said, if your interested cause you think it will fix all your problems and work just like a charm at the first turn of the key, don't bother as you'll surely be dissapointed. All good things take effort to setup correctly. _________________ Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15278 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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It's not about hating. FI is simply not cost effective in a VW compared to the price of carbs. Add in the cost of a laptop if you do not already own one.
One bad wire or electrical connection and your walking home. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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