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raul arrese
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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 Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| c.ruber wrote: |
| So the reason I started this post is because I have been fighting with a set of old IDAs on my 2276. It seems that there were several problems that I was fighting at once. I had a twisted throttle shaft and ignition problems with the unilite. I had to de-engineer and simplify the engine to trouble shoot all the problems that I had going on. I'll admit that I'm no pro at tuning carbs and this was a real learning experience with the number of discrepancies that had accumulated. Sorting all of them out and correcting each one as I went was very time consuming and frustrating. I realize that with more complex engine management systems there are inherent complexities as well. Will trouble shooting be a more simple task with EFI and a modern ignition system? |
well I think it all depends on you , carbs can be a big pain but if you can put time into a carb then I see no reason why you cant do EFI , its just allot of reading and asking questions , I purchased my megasquirt in kit form and sodered it all up , im no expert and I got it done , my personal opinion is that megasquirt support is the best anywhere .. I have never had much support from any other brand EFI unit .
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RHough
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013
Posts: 299
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| c.ruber wrote: |
| So the reason I started this post is because I have been fighting with a set of old IDAs on my 2276. It seems that there were several problems that I was fighting at once. I had a twisted throttle shaft and ignition problems with the unilite. I had to de-engineer and simplify the engine to trouble shoot all the problems that I had going on. I'll admit that I'm no pro at tuning carbs and this was a real learning experience with the number of discrepancies that had accumulated. Sorting all of them out and correcting each one as I went was very time consuming and frustrating. I realize that with more complex engine management systems there are inherent complexities as well. Will trouble shooting be a more simple task with EFI and a modern ignition system? |
IMO no. With a carb and ignition system as separate you can change out suspect parts easier. A good EFI system is integrated and harder to isolate the system (fuel or ignition) that is causing the symptoms.
If you suspect a bad distributor or carb, you can ask a buddy to try your suspect part to see if the symptom transfers with the part. With a custom EFI system you are on your own.
I think you need a better understanding of how fuel and ignition interact as an engine management system to setup and troubleshoot EFI. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Ive found that fighting issues is usualy either somebody elses problems from using thier used stuff that didnt work.and or not knowing exzactly what your doing and or why your doing it.or a combination of both. just knowing the basics or even being an exspert on a different or even slightly different system can throw you a curve ot two. some times it takes time to come up to speed on a new(different ) part or way of getting to where you want to be and understanding it. I was pretty good on holly carbs 4150,4160,4500 & a few others. but when I got into these webbers......I learned a lot. a lot I probably could of used on the hollys too. Ive seen a lot of exsperts ,doing shit to carbs, they didnt know what they were doing or why but they had seen it before so....it must be right....not!!!!I'e seen a lot of effed up carbs because of the monkey do what monkey see thing.
As for the thread name....well FI is nice if you can afford it and have the skills to use it. if not carbs are great....hear it is .....if you have the skills to use them. I do wish i had fi on all my stuff, but my carbs work flawlessly, get great mpg when my foot isant having a convolsion or something.
Ive seen oh somany people that just dont understand squat.and carbs are real suseptable to morons effing with them.like the local moron with a 44idf on his 1776 that has jetted it down to a 40 because a 44 is way too big......yup he's on a different motor now. effing morons.nuff said.( I forgot to add he is a vw exspert!!! what a joke. Im amazed he can opperate the door handle.) |
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raul arrese
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I learned allot about carbs when I started pressurizing them back in the 80's , there was no support or feed back so I had no choice but to learn ..
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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The is a lot of naysayer about EFI because they do not understand it or not willing to learn or just no believers the EFI is better then carbs........
Dale
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RHough
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013
Posts: 299
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
The is a lot of naysayer about EFI because they do not understand it or not willing to learn or just no believers the EFI is better then carbs........
Dale |
I'm just saying that if you don't have a good handle on separate fuel and ignition systems an integrated system gives you more ways to tune yourself into a corner. People that mask fuel issues with odd timing or don't get the relationships between mixture load and timing will find FI very frustrating.
The absolute performance is not at issue. Matching your engine management system to your skills, tools, and patience will give the best result. |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| RHough wrote: |
| I'm just saying that if you don't have a good handle on separate fuel and ignition systems an integrated system gives you more ways to tune yourself into a corner. People that mask fuel issues with odd timing or don't get the relationships between mixture load and timing will find FI very frustrating. |
Those same people will also find carb / distributor systems frustrating, able only to try things people on the internet recommend. The difference is only the technology.
Also, there is no reason one can't do FI without controlling ignition with the EFI computer. I did that just to be able to solve one thing at a time. And of course you can also combine a programmable ignition system with carbs.
Max
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
The is a lot of naysayer about EFI because they do not understand it or not willing to learn or just no believers the EFI is better then carbs........
Dale |
EFI is only better for the people that understand computers and electronics but do not understand the mechanical principals of carbs. Everybody has different skill levels. I do agree that EFI paired with turbo technology can make some very impressive performance.
Carbs can get just as much HP and MPG on a N/A engine as EFI when tuned correctly. Problem is very few people have the understanding and knowledge to tune them. I personally can get them about 95% but I'll never get carbs tuned to the full 100%. I'll also bet very, very few get their EFI tuned 100%. One of the biggest problems with carbs is that most people over carb thinking bigger is better.
I don't mess with EFI because adapting EFI to a VW is simply not cost effective for me. I use real Webers and not any of the China junk.
The people that start with used junkyard crap will never have anything more then used junkyard crap.
The only serious advantage EFI has is drivability when traveling up and down major elevation changes. None of my VW's are required to meet any EPA standards for the state I live in so emissions is not a consideration for me, although it might be for others.
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| RHough wrote: |
| IMO no. With a carb and ignition system as separate you can change out suspect parts easier. A good EFI system is integrated and harder to isolate the system (fuel or ignition) that is causing the symptoms. |
I don't understand this at all. How would it be more difficult? I don't know about you guys, but Megasquirt practically troubleshoots itself. If you ever have a problem, look at the ECU with the laptop and find the input that's not responding. Couldn't be simpler. For example, say the engine suddenly starts running really rich for seemingly no reason. Hook up the computer and find out the engine temperature sensor is reading dead cold even on a warmed up engine, so after verifying the wiring hasn't gone bad you buy a $5 sensor at ANY FLAPS and you're done.
Hell, you don't even need a laptop 99% of the time. You just need a DMM and half a brain. Read through that same sensor and find out it's shorted or open? You just found the problem, and that's how it's done at most garages to this day. Basic troubleshooting techniques will tell you 99% of what a fancy scanner was going to tell you, but for 1% the cost. All you have to do is LEARN, it's not hard.
Know what I think? I think there's a whole lot of people out there that simply don't know electrical troubleshooting, or are too scared to learn it for whatever reason. They are scared of unknowns, or afraid that they won't be able to service the system- or perhaps that they will make matters worse. But all the while, the fact is that a properly installed EFI system will be orders of magnitude more reliable than most carbs.
Kind of the opposite of me- I'm not afraid of electronics, but ask me to pound out a dent on a fender? No sir, farm it out to someone else! I don't do body work. 
| Quote: |
| If you suspect a bad distributor or carb, you can ask a buddy to try your suspect part to see if the symptom transfers with the part. With a custom EFI system you are on your own. |
And if you don't live near a buddy? You're up the same creek as someone with an EFI system... Logic seems to be lacking here.  FWIW, you're pointing out the same problem I was just speaking about- lack of technical knowledge on troubleshooting. In the end the manner of fuel delivery is inconsequential if you don't know how to fix it, I would say learn what you need to know about it and fix yourself instead of expecting others to do your legwork.
| Quote: |
| I think you need a better understanding of how fuel and ignition interact as an engine management system to setup and troubleshoot EFI. |
And this is the main problem: it's not the wizard behind his drape, pulling levers and pushing buttons or some type of magic. EFI is a very simple thing, when you boil it down. Sure it gets complicated with all the code and the fact that there is an onboard computer. Stop thinking about what it's doing behind the scenes, and just worry about getting the right timing and fuel dialed in. Many systems out there do it by themselves anyway, so as long as you don't botch the install things go fine.
Same rules apply with carbs, how many botched carb installs have there been in VW land? Many more than EFI I suspect, because there are far fewer FI people around.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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raul arrese
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
The is a lot of naysayer about EFI because they do not understand it or not willing to learn or just no believers the EFI is better then carbs........
Dale |
EFI is only better for the people that understand computers and electronics but do not understand the mechanical principals of carbs. Everybody has different skill levels. I do agree that EFI paired with turbo technology can make some very impressive performance.
Carbs can get just as much HP and MPG on a N/A engine as EFI when tuned correctly. Problem is very few people have the understanding and knowledge to tune them. I personally can get them about 95% but I'll never get carbs tuned to the full 100%. I'll also bet very, very few get their EFI tuned 100%.
I don't mess with EFI because adapting EFI to a VW is simply not cost effective for me. I use real Webers and not any of the China junk.
The people that start with used junkyard crap will never have anything more then used junkyard crap.
The only serious advantage EFI has is drivability when traveling up and down major elevation changes. None of my VW's are required to meet any EPA standards for the state I live in so emissions is not a consideration for me, although it might be for others. |
I don't wana get into a pissin match here but I cant agree with you racer dave , Most guys that are fuel injected like myself on this forum have done carbs all there lives , you name it I have done it to a carb , I was blowing thr carbs back in the 80's and doing all kinds of crazy shit to them .... Are they cool ?? yes Can they run good and perform ?? yes , Can you make them pass emissions if you want ?? yes But In no way will they ever compare to a properly tuned EFI set up ... I like carbs and they performed for me when I didn't have anything else but no way will I run carbs on any type of motor again , EFi isn't even real expensive anymore or difficult , There really isn't even an argument here ... the only type of professional race cars that are still on carbs are cause of the rules , and most of them have been pushing for EFI for years ...
_________________
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" 2013 Bug Jam class winner "
" Bug Jam best motor and best paint "
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" 2014 Show and Shine , First in class "
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raul arrese
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| RHough wrote: |
| IMO no. With a carb and ignition system as separate you can change out suspect parts easier. A good EFI system is integrated and harder to isolate the system (fuel or ignition) that is causing the symptoms. |
I don't understand this at all. How would it be more difficult? I don't know about you guys, but Megasquirt practically troubleshoots itself. If you ever have a problem, look at the ECU with the laptop and find the input that's not responding. Couldn't be simpler. For example, say the engine suddenly starts running really rich for seemingly no reason. Hook up the computer and find out the engine temperature sensor is reading dead cold even on a warmed up engine, so after verifying the wiring hasn't gone bad you buy a $5 sensor at ANY FLAPS and you're done.
Hell, you don't even need a laptop 99% of the time. You just need a DMM and half a brain. Read through that same sensor and find out it's shorted or open? You just found the problem, and that's how it's done at most garages to this day. Basic troubleshooting techniques will tell you 99% of what a fancy scanner was going to tell you, but for 1% the cost. All you have to do is LEARN, it's not hard.
Know what I think? I think there's a whole lot of people out there that simply don't know electrical troubleshooting, or are too scared to learn it for whatever reason. They are scared of unknowns, or afraid that they won't be able to service the system- or perhaps that they will make matters worse. But all the while, the fact is that a properly installed EFI system will be orders of magnitude more reliable than most carbs.
Kind of the opposite of me- I'm not afraid of electronics, but ask me to pound out a dent on a fender? No sir, farm it out to someone else! I don't do body work.
| Quote: |
| If you suspect a bad distributor or carb, you can ask a buddy to try your suspect part to see if the symptom transfers with the part. With a custom EFI system you are on your own. |
And if you don't live near a buddy? You're up the same creek as someone with an EFI system... Logic seems to be lacking here. FWIW, you're pointing out the same problem I was just speaking about- lack of technical knowledge on troubleshooting. In the end the manner of fuel delivery is inconsequential if you don't know how to fix it, I would say learn what you need to know about it and fix yourself instead of expecting others to do your legwork.
| Quote: |
| I think you need a better understanding of how fuel and ignition interact as an engine management system to setup and troubleshoot EFI. |
And this is the main problem: it's not the wizard behind his drape, pulling levers and pushing buttons or some type of magic. EFI is a very simple thing, when you boil it down. Sure it gets complicated with all the code and the fact that there is an onboard computer. Stop thinking about what it's doing behind the scenes, and just worry about getting the right timing and fuel dialed in. Many systems out there do it by themselves anyway, so as long as you don't botch the install things go fine.
Same rules apply with carbs, how many botched carb installs have there been in VW land? Many more than EFI I suspect, because there are far fewer FI people around. |
All this is very true and let me add some more , My motor uses a 36 tooth wheel that is available anywhere and a crank sensor , That's all it uses for ignition and fuel events ... A tps on the throttle shaft a coolant sensor and an air temp sensor , the map is built onto the board , no big deal .. If you think its not working correctly just look at the Tooth logger its that simple you can visually see every tooth on that wheel and know exactly what the crank trigger is doing .... Oh so your a lazy tunner ?? just turn on auto tune and let it tune for you ... yes again its very simple ... most carb guys are using widebands so you already have the basics for what you need to tune ... the only thing you cant have is fear ........
_________________
" Hot vw feature , may 2014 issue "
" 2013 Bug Jam class winner "
" Bug Jam best motor and best paint "
" 2013 Lakeland Classic Best of Show "
" 2014 Show and Shine , First in class "
"
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RHough
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013
Posts: 299
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
| RHough wrote: |
| I'm just saying that if you don't have a good handle on separate fuel and ignition systems an integrated system gives you more ways to tune yourself into a corner. People that mask fuel issues with odd timing or don't get the relationships between mixture load and timing will find FI very frustrating. |
Those same people will also find carb / distributor systems frustrating, able only to try things people on the internet recommend. The difference is only the technology.
Also, there is no reason one can't do FI without controlling ignition with the EFI computer. I did that just to be able to solve one thing at a time. And of course you can also combine a programmable ignition system with carbs.
Max |
I don't agree. Maybe when bolt on EFI systems are as common as Webers and 009's are.
At this point in time I think a still learning VW guy (aren't we all) can go online and check off a list:
Dual IR Carb Kit
Fuel Pressure Regulator
009 or SVDA Dist
1 3/8 "- 1 3/4" exhaust system to fit the displacement
For under $1500 they have parts they can bolt on and with a little skill and not much luck they can drive it away. More importantly they probably have someone local that can come over and help with the learning curve. That is not going to be true for a home brew Megasquirt system.
If EFI systems were as easy (or difficult) to install as some people think I would expect them to be more popular and almost turn-key bolt on kits would be competing with the multitude of carburetor systems available. Fact is if there are similar bolt on EFI systems available the mainstream ACVW vendors don't seem to offer them. The exception seems to be CB with a $2500 system.
When I do a search for EFI Kit for VW the first thing that comes back for me is from Jake Raby:
| Quote: |
| Before going further I will state that IF you are an enthusiast that is considering EFI power because the headaches of carburetors have been a challenge for you; then you won't be any more effective with EFI. Carburetion is simple, the concept is simple and the tuning is simple, if you can't master that you need not move on to advanced engine management systems. Some will disagree with this, they always do. |
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.php/fuel-injection
The second hit is $3500 for a Redline Kit
http://www.racetep.com/acvwinj.html
Third hit is CB:
http://www.cbperformance.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=288
If there was even a $1500 EFI option to the IDF's I have I would have gone for it.
I don't think the idea of a radio shack collection of parts to build a Megasquirt system appeals to the same demographic as bolt on carburetor systems do. It is one thing to figure out engine management challenges and quite another when you add component selection and quality of assembly into the mix.
I think this will change in the future as more small engine systems are developed. But right now the answer to someone that says, "I'm having problems getting the tune right on my carbs/distributor engine. Would EFI be easier?" is "No."
I agree with Jake.  |
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raul arrese
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Oh so its about money and not wanting or having the skills to build it ?? here you go 340.00 Built with harness and its not cheap radio shack parts , surface mount technology and it will even scratch your ???
_________________
" Hot vw feature , may 2014 issue "
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" Bug Jam best motor and best paint "
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| RHough wrote: |
| Max Welton wrote: |
| RHough wrote: |
| I'm just saying that if you don't have a good handle on separate fuel and ignition systems an integrated system gives you more ways to tune yourself into a corner. People that mask fuel issues with odd timing or don't get the relationships between mixture load and timing will find FI very frustrating. |
Those same people will also find carb / distributor systems frustrating, able only to try things people on the internet recommend. The difference is only the technology.
Also, there is no reason one can't do FI without controlling ignition with the EFI computer. I did that just to be able to solve one thing at a time. And of course you can also combine a programmable ignition system with carbs.
Max |
I don't agree. Maybe when bolt on EFI systems are as common as Webers and 009's are. |
Which part do you not agree with? That understanding the relationship between fuel, ignition timing and load is as import to a carb/distributor system as it is with FI? Or that one can do FI without controlling ignition?
You seem to be saying that the availability of help is the advantage. If so, I would agree with that. FI certainly isn't for everybody.
Of course carbs aren't for everybody either. I stopped doing carbs because every time I wanted to try different jets I had to wait for them to come on the mail. 3-4 days in a good week. With FI I can try several different setups in one day.
Max
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RHough
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013
Posts: 299
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| RHough wrote: |
| IMO no. With a carb and ignition system as separate you can change out suspect parts easier. A good EFI system is integrated and harder to isolate the system (fuel or ignition) that is causing the symptoms. |
I don't understand this at all. How would it be more difficult? I don't know about you guys, but Megasquirt practically troubleshoots itself. |
Do a search on "Megasquirt EFI for VW" and see if you can buy a bolt on kit.
The witch doctor approach to building a Megasquirt system put me off even though I have no doubt that good results can be obtained. I'm not afraid of EFI in the least. I was on the front lines as a technician during the industry change from carbs to EFI in the 80's.
For EFI to be a viable option to recommend over the available dual carb systems EFI has to be competitive on price and ease of install. EFI systems don't have to be price matched to dual IR carbs but the price difference has to be proportional to the improved performance.
When you can buy a Megasquirt system that bolts to IDF manifolds, includes the fuel pump and return system, mountings for components, wire harness, and a base map for the engine spec for maybe a 20% premium over carburetors you have a bigger market.
From what I have read the level of skill required to build and install an EFI system is not even close to what is required to swap an exhaust and install carbs.
Perhaps the reason there are so many hacked carburetor installs is because they are too easy? |
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Max Welton
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Location: Black Forest, CO
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Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
Carbs can get just as much HP and MPG on a N/A engine as EFI when tuned correctly. |
Show me ANY full bodies VW bug that can run low 12's at 4400 ft elevation, and still get 40mpg while holding 70mph running carburetors.
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You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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Eaallred
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Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
Carbs can get just as much HP and MPG on a N/A engine as EFI when tuned correctly. |
Show me ANY full bodies VW bug that can run low 12's at 4400 ft elevation, and still get 40mpg while holding 70mph running carburetors.
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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RHough
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013
Posts: 299
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
| RHough wrote: |
| Max Welton wrote: |
| RHough wrote: |
| I'm just saying that if you don't have a good handle on separate fuel and ignition systems an integrated system gives you more ways to tune yourself into a corner. People that mask fuel issues with odd timing or don't get the relationships between mixture load and timing will find FI very frustrating. |
Those same people will also find carb / distributor systems frustrating, able only to try things people on the internet recommend. The difference is only the technology.
Also, there is no reason one can't do FI without controlling ignition with the EFI computer. I did that just to be able to solve one thing at a time. And of course you can also combine a programmable ignition system with carbs.
Max |
I don't agree. Maybe when bolt on EFI systems are as common as Webers and 009's are. |
Which part do you not agree with? That understanding the relationship between fuel, ignition timing and load is as import to a carb/distributor system as it is with FI? Or that one can do FI without controlling ignition?
You seem to be saying that the availability of help is the advantage. If so, I would agree with that. FI certainly isn't for everybody.
Of course carbs aren't for everybody either. I stopped doing carbs because every time I wanted to try different jets I had to wait for them to come on the mail. 3-4 days in a good week. With FI I can try several different setups in one day.
Max |
I agree that once installed EFI is a tuner's dream. That is not the point in this thread.
This is the context:
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| So the reason I started this post is because I have been fighting with a set of old IDAs on my 2276. It seems that there were several problems that I was fighting at once. I had a twisted throttle shaft and ignition problems with the unilite. I had to de-engineer and simplify the engine to trouble shoot all the problems that I had going on. I'll admit that I'm no pro at tuning carbs and this was a real learning experience with the number of discrepancies that had accumulated. Sorting all of them out and correcting each one as I went was very time consuming and frustrating. I realize that with more complex engine management systems there are inherent complexities as well. Will trouble shooting be a more simple task with EFI and a modern ignition system? |
I don't think advising a change to EFI is the correct answer in this case. |
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Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Complete EFI kits:
http://thedubshop.goodsie.com/complete-kits
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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