Head/Engine Cooling - Idea/Discussion

[DubStyle]

Some years ago I seen a HotVWs with Gene Burgs bug and the engine had squirrel cage over each side of the engine and NO fan shroud. I was explained back then that it was for drag use and wouldn't keep a street car cool enough. That the lack of a fan freed up the engine. Fast forward all these years later and I see more potential with this concept/design. Hear me out and give me your pros & cons of what I want to do in a Bus. I need a question or two answered, but that doesn't change my idea.

I want to install fan shrouds on each side of the engine bay, utilizing the current vents, installing a fan on each vent pulling cooler air from outside of the engine bay, duct them into the opening over each side of the engine that a fan shroud uses. I would put temp gauges or thermostats on each side of the engine to ensure the fans kick on to keep head temp down. With that said…

1. How many CFMs does a stock VW fan push at driving rpms?
2. Does the air moving around in a shroud affect the oil temp, other than the oil cooler?
3. Would an external oil cooler with temp gauge and fan keep internal oil temps in the optimal temp range?

I’m sure this has been done, does this idea sound halfcocked or do you think it will work? I want to build a 2L motor, but cooling has always been my main concern. Input is welcomed, but I’m looking for constructive input.
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Anthony

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[bugguy076]

It's the age old question, what uses the least HP for cooling. The mechanical fan uses HP to keep the engine cool and the electric fans use power from the battery that must be replaced by the altenator.If you are going for a unique look for a show car, the electric fans would make a cool racey look. As far as what would last the longest and have the least problems for long term use, the tried and true mechanical fan wins, hands down.
If you want a large cc engine that will give years of service without over heating problems, it must be built correctly. Stay away from 94mm pistons, use thick wall 92mm pistons. Install a larger stroke crank to make up the difference in cc's lost from using smaller pistons. Keep the compression at a reasonable number. And above all, use quality parts.

[DubStyle]

Tried and true for the win, but the amount of draw on new fans is minimal. I'm not looking to increase HP, it's about cooling and making that thick walled engine last a LOOOOOOOONG time. I appreciate your input... constructive and positive!
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Anthony

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[Slow 1200]

Type 1 non-doghouse- 530 L/sec or 1124 CFM at 3800 rpm

Type 1 doghouse- 600 L/sec or 1272 CFM at 4000 rpm

Type 3- 580 L/sec or 1230 CFM at 3800 rpm

Type 4- 800 L/sec or 1700 CFM at 4600 rpm


this has been beat to death, search "electric fans" in the performance subforum and you can be reading for months

[bluebus86]

.2 Yes, the oil temp is effected by head temp and oil cooler temp, if head temp gets too high, the oil cooler wont be able to keep the oil cool enough. oil temp is NOT a good measure of what the fan is doing as far has head and cylinder cooling is concerned.
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Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022

[mark tucker]

be sure when you compare fans cfm you also compare the pressure at witch that rating was taken. my oe fan has enough pressure to lift the cylinder tins at the case end where it isant bolted(I made a bracket to keep itdown) the electrick fans may not be able to do this.like the fan on the oli cooler that is rated around 1300cfm. and if you duct extra air to the tins be sure to have a flaper so it dosent blow out the pumped air out the new ducts when at low road speeds where the engine fam has to do all the cooling. also some sort of checking to be sure it is doing what it is intended to do.

[RHough]

I think it is highly unlikely that any electric cooling fan setup will be able to match the stock fan and cooling for overall performance.

It boils down to how much power does it take to remove heat. It is almost never more efficient to convert mechanical power to electric or hydraulic to do the same job.

If you can improve on the stock fan and housing enough to use enough less power to compensate for the losses to make more electricity you have broken even.

Cooling performance will be limited by the HP the belt can handle. Makes no difference to the belt if it is driving 10HP to run the stock fan or 11-12HP extra to run two 5HP electrical fans (10-20% loss is typical).

If there was a reasonable alternative to the factory cooling system there would be a million systems to look at. That there are none offered tells me that the stock system is very good and does not need improvement. I'd spend my time and money on Keno girls and Gin before I'd try to build a new cooling system for a VW.

Cheers
Randy

[WD-40]

[vwracerdave]

I'm going to re harsh and very realistic. Electric fans DO NOT work for cooling a street driven VW. You will need more electrical power then the stock Alternator can provide to make it work. The best cooling fan is the stock dog house cooler system. Nothing has changed the last 40 years with electrical fans. A well built 2110 can produce 130 HP and last 100,000 miles without and auxillary cooling.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[theDrew]

[RHough]

[WD-40]

[WD-40]

[raygreenwood]

And actually power usage aside because its just too much power consumption. ....the real key to cooling with air on these engines is not just the cfm. Its the static pressure generated ....read that at air pressure @ required cfm. To get electric motor driven fans to deliver the amount of static pressure required that you curently get from the torque of the engine with all of that rotating mass.....you would need to have very large electric motors.....requiring more power than you can economically generate along with actually moving the wheels. Ray

[theKbStockpiler]

Always an interesting subject.Tatra claimed that they had the technology to allow an aircooler to pass modern emission tests but nothing became of it. That would be worth looking into. I was reading the other day that porsche's have oil injected in the crown of the piston to cool them off. I wonder how practical/impractical it would be to have that kind of plumbing done to a type 1 case?
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Use all safety devices including a mask.

[DubStyle]

Everyone keeps saying referring to the lack of power to juice said fans. There are some seriously low drain/low drag fans on the market.

vwracerdave - your comments were harsh in any way. Have you been the Split Bus forum when someone asks how to lower a bus? LOL

Inputs are good, I know the CFM from the stock set-up is enough. This thought has been in my head for years and I think you can effectively cool an engine with low drain on the charging system. Assuming your aren't already running a higher voltage Alternator. It might not be worth the extra cash though. I already have plans on running an external oil cooler with fan. Keep the inputs coming. I know there is someone out there that has tried it and made it happen.
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Anthony

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[HRVW]

Back in the early 1980's I had a 70 Bug....with a 1776 Turbo... with the normal early style oil cooler and a TRANNY cooler mounted just behind the front axle and just under the master cyl area. I ran oil field hose under the frame channels on the drivers side back to the engine.

COLD air off the pavement would keep the oil Temp down while I was still able to get 10-15lbs of boost.

This set up is not for anyone with a dropped spindles and there is NO problem if you watch speed bumps or the cement markers in mkt parking lots. I still have that TRANNY cooler today but cannot use it in my 1966 Bug 1776 Turbo due to the car having dropped spindles.

The oil with this set up is a lot cooler be it street or Fwy driving.

As to the fan used by Gene Berg it was called "Squirrel Cage" and I still have one from my Drag racing days.....other one lost someplace.

[DubStyle]

Thanks HRVW... I knew what I meant, but I'm working late night hours and my brain and finger tips are disconnected when I type. LoL
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Anthony

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[ALB]

[mark tucker]