A little bouncy...

[krs.br79]

So, I just finished putting together the front end on my '63, and things seem a little bouncy. Not to the point of causing kidney pains, but they remind me of my first lowered Honda Civic back in the late 90's.

Here is a rundown of what was just put in.

-New scratch built 4" narrowed beam, with shock towers, sway away adjusters.
-New beam bushings
-New, narrowed tie rods with new tie rod ends
-New TRW steering box
-CB drop spindles and front disc brakes
-New german link and king pins
-New KYB GR'2's stock sized front and rear

The wheels are 15x6.5 with front's being Nankang N803's with a size of 145R15 78S, rears are 195/50R15's. (not a fan of the staggered sizes)

I understand the handling characteristics change with lowering a vehicle. I do not know what a stock height bug feels like. I started off with all this replacing a old beam with a nasty select-a-drop adjuster, and some monster sized shocks. All of these new components "bounce" just as much as the old stuff did.

As for the rear, I have not had a chance to check and see if it's been messed with, but I'd gather from the ride height I would say no? Thoughts?

Oh, and I wanted to wait to get the car on the alignment rack to figure how much I need to fix the caster, so currently there are no caster plates.

The adjusters are adjusted pretty high, and I guess my main question is this;

Is it possible to adjust each adjuster unevenly, to the point that the springs could be working against one another? Is it possible to adjust them to high, where the geometry of the springs are not able to properly do their job?

[bluebus86]

Check the rear, if you don't know how it is set up in the rear, for all we know it has not been touched since last in Germany. From the photos, it looks close to stock height, but the low profile tires may be distorting my view.
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[krs.br79]

[Joe Bence]

KYB GR2's on a 4inch beam are going to be stiff, a oil shock would be better. Also double check that you are not bottoming out the shocks. With that much rake you are going to need caster shims.

[bugguy076]

A set of used stock shocks work best. I think your probem is that the shocks are too long. check to see if they are bottoming out. I use modified stock shocks on mine. I removed the cover sleeve and shortened them 2". With a full tank of fuel it rides smooth.

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

Narrow beams ride stiff
If the beam has urethane bushings, it rides stiff
If the bump stops are still attached it rides stiff
If the shocks are too long or gas... it rides stiff.
Less sidewall tires ride stiff.

The rear looks high but its because it has low profile rear tires...TOO low for good transaxle gearing...

Take the front shocks off and see how it rides... if its better either leave them off or find worn out used oil shocks.

Add Caster shims behind the lower tube..... its gonna need it regardless...

Yes.. the springs can be adjusted independently to "tune" the ride..
One high and one low..
.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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Usually and often edited

[txoval]

Post above mine nailed it...remove the front shocks to see if they are the issue.

I would lower your rear 1 spline

[ThingBeast]

I would have to disagree that a narrowed adjustable beam "rides stiff". KRS, first thing i would check to see if you had installed castor shims behind the beam. If not, the geometry of the front end is all jacked up and could cause locking up of the steering wheel and jamming up the tie rods. You need to bring the geometry back to normal as much as possible. Second, i would get rid of the red polyurethane bushings and go with delrin bushings. The red bushings are meant for sandrails with very light front ends. Then like someone else said, check your shocks, go with oil. Next, align it yourself, you don't need to go to some high end shop to do it for you. Just go to youtube and look around, its very easy to do. I can walk you thru it if you wish. I replaced my front stock beam with a new 4" narrowed adjustable beam from CIP1 with all new components just like you. The only thing i didn't replace was my steering box. I aligned it myself too and turned out perfect. My bug is dropped all the way the beam allows me to and drives straight and true, no pulling, drifting, shaking or shimmying. How about some pics from underneath? Oh, also, be absolutely sure the adjusters are at the same height and angle, do NOT let them fight against each other....

[krs.br79]

Okay, thanks everyone for the pointers.

So, I prefer not to have this much rake on the car, and I'd like to even the height out some. The current wheels and tires were put on by the PO, so I am not sure of their thought process behind them. I do have the stock wheels, which I will go put on today as well, to see how bad the rake is, and see how the rears sit.

In regards to caster shims, will one pair suffice? I was under the impression they needed to be added based off how far off your caster was, but from what I'm hearing I should add one shim regardless?

I will pull the front shocks off and go for a drive and see how it feels. if it improves, great, if not...I will look for oil filled shocks for the front. I don't feel like I am bottoming out the current shocks, based off measurements and past experiences on other vehicles that have bottomed out. But I will take a look at them again. Oh, and not sure if there is a difference, but the GR2 shocks I'm seeing in the classifieds say GR2 and are silver. These are black and say Excel G. Same thing?

In regards to the torsion springs, I read one comment that says they can be "tuned" independently, and another that said make sure they match. I've spent some time trying to run searches in regards to this, but cannot find adequate info on this.

For alignment, I struggle with trying to get the measurements while the car is sitting on the tires. Up on jack stands no problem. I'll look into this more for best used process to get it done.

Here are some pictures of what I have;

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

When the torsion bars are shortened, they simply resist to twist as easy..
A narrowed beam will ride stiffer when compared to a stock length beam.
Thats just the facts..

As for adjusting one spring independently of the other..
It's perfectly fine to do this. Its a method thats been used for years in the kit car and racing world....as well as the lowered world..
Its doesnt seem to make sense on paper... but in the real world... it does in fact work.. with no adverse effects.
You generally dont want to adjust one to force down while the other is forcing up... thats counteractive.....and yes they fight each other..

Granted.. the odd spring adjustment doesnt quite react as well on narrowed beams...but it does and can help.

(Search the kit car forum for many results on softening the suspension..)


Removing the front shocks alone may very well improve the feel.
Its not uncommon for narrowed beams... to not use shocks at all
That said I prefer rather have some very light worn oil shocks anyway.

With drop spindles.. I doubt the shocks are bottoming out...but they could simply be too stiff..

Oil shocks do more for rebound than compression dampening.. Takes the oscillating effect out of the suspension.

Gas shock will firm up and provides compression dampening and rebound dampening.
On a light weight nose of a VW gas shocks tend to be take a bump harsh and feel a bit stiff, but can provide more control.

Thats a preference thing for the driver...

Caster Shims... 1 pair help stability... even on a stock VW..
So for me.. as a tech at one of those high end (79.95) alignment shops...
Stock to mild rake gets 1 pair, and lots of rake get 2 pair of Caster shims..

It looks like your beam is adjusted 3/4 to all the way up... for both tubes and the car is raked..
I hope you have enough adjustment to be able to tune. With drop spindles its best to have the adjusters installed in the center position stock height to provide some fine tuning of the springs for both ride.. and height.
If they were installed at full lowering... you may be screwed for tuning adjust-ability with drop spindles.
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[krs.br79]

Thanks for that info, makes more sense now. I'll do some perusing in the kit forum and see what I can find.

Also, yes the adjusters are currently maxed out. I just went out and turned them the rest of the way. I could get another few turns if I were to get slimmer locking nut, but that's it. I told the shop that was building the beam that I was not going with a slammed look, and would have drop spindles, but neglected to ask specifically to weld them in towards the middle adjustment. Live and learn on that.

However, I also put the stock wheels/tires on and took it for a drive. Raising the adjusters all the way, and the better tire combo has made the feel a LOT better, and looks better too (aside from the color contrast).

Next I'll pull the shocks off and give it a go. I don't like doing everything at once, as then I can't see what seems to be the fix.

Thanks

[ThingBeast]

Volkswagnut is correct about adding a pair of caster shims to the beam. The only reason i said that narrowed beams don't all ride stiff is simply because after i did my front end, my bug turned out just fine and feels like a stock ride, no bumpiness or stiffness. I don't scrape anywhere on the car. Another thing i would probably look at if the changes don't work is try removing the front wheels. Grab both upper and lower control arms and see if you can rotate them from a 3 o'clock position to a 1 o'clock position by hand. It should be firm not flimsy. If it's far too hard to move, you may have to remove the spindles and try this again. The polyurathane bushings may be to big possibly, that's why i recommended delrin...just my 2 cents worth..

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

[krs.br79]

[littleredwagen]

Check your tire psi, they might be higher than they need to be.

[ThingBeast]

Krs, the red or black bushings are usually made of polyurethane material. You need to go online to Saco Performance. Com and order yourself a set of the white delrin bushings. Delrin is self lubricating unlike polyurethane. Also, the control arms won't sag when inserted into the beam but rather keep a tight and uniform fit all around. When u remove the control arms, take a pair of calipers and measure all around the beam ends to get a good measurement, then order the correct size from the list on the site. Like volkswagnut said, u need 1 pair of caster shims per 2" of rake compared to the rear height.  

[Ace]

A bit of incorrect info here. I also suggest you search deeper on the sight too.

[eyetzr]

I think you have been getting some great info & it will help others as well. You may want to try one thing & test drive to see if there is a change. It is the simple things that usually make the big changes & try to drive the same routes during your test drives. Keep us posted
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I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done"

[krs.br79]

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

This may be another case.. of... it is what it is..