Is this a VW38 or a V303?

[Slow 1200]

[allsidius]

Hard to tell, most likely a VW 38. If it's a V303, it must be IIIA-42802. I read somewhere that a tell tale sign was the shutline between the hood against the base of the windshield, on the 303s the curve wasn't that pronounced. It definately has the squared off hood corners, so it is within the first 12 to 15 made.

edit:

The change in the shutline was introduced for the VW 39 series, according Birth of the Beetle by Chris Barber.

Cars were made with the square hood corners up to at least car no 21.
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1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

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[bugman1955]

I thought MAJOR DINCKLAGE on the plane was a joke until I looked it up.

[allsidius]

I just learned from Chris Barber's amazing book Birth of the Beetle that to spot the difference between the V303 cars and the VW 38 series, you need to know the details of the V30 and the VW 38 chassis. The V30 had parallel sides, where they hook up to the heater channels in a production car, while the VW 38 chassis tapers in towards the front, like all production beetles. Also, the pressings in the pans ran longitudinal on the V30, while on the VW 38 they were changed to transverse like later beetle. The V303 series were hastily built on the V30 chassis, but with much the same bodywork as the VW 38, so I guess you would have to climb under the car to spot the difference. The first 38 was delivered just 6 weeks after the first ever rolling split window beetle, the non-sunroof car IIIA-42801.

On the other hand, the sunroof car , no IIIA-42802, has wrecked in a frontal chrash in March 1939, while still under testing, so I guess the answer is found. The car in the picture is a VW38, it is unlikely that the 802 car was released for other duties so early in the testing scheme. This car has the squared off hood corners, so it has to be from the first half of the VW38 series.

On page 156 of the Barber book, there is a sunroof VW38, claimed to be car number 6, which we know so well does not have a sunroof. The number is hard to see in print, but I guess Chris has a better copy. Number 38/09 has a sunroof, number 10 too (proudly presented in the Sparcarte brochure) Number 11, 18, 19, 22, 23 had them too, but at some point the rounded hood corners were introduced so later cars cannot be the one in the picture.

So we have a lot of candidates for the car, they were massively photographed and I am sure that one of the experts may be able to pin down the excact car.
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1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

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[Undis]

From this angle it is very hard to distinguish if it is a V303 or a VW38 car as none of the features are clearly visible. Most of the known pictures of the V303 car IIIA-42802 are from the factory cornerstone laying ceremony. There are a few more from publicity runs and testing but as Allsidius points out the car was promptly written off in an accident. One of the main differences of the V303 cars were the steering wheels that were of a four-spoke design not found on any later cars (unfortunately not visible in the above photo). My bet is that the car in the photo is an early version of a VW38.

Good point about the chassis. It's true that Chris Barber proposes a theory that the three V303 cars were built using the old V30 chassis and he bases this on some technical drawings that are in his book. This is quite believable as the three V303 cars were hastily built as they were already behind schedule and had to be ready for the May '38 ceremony. However I think they used only the chassis tunnel and some suspension parts. First of all the wheels on the V303 are already the familiar wide-five bolt pattern as opposed to narrow-five of the V30 cars so at least the brake drums were already new. Also I don't think they went to the trouble of making the new body fit the old non-tapered floor pans. They must have custom-made new floor pan halves to fit the old chassis backbone and the new body shape as this would have been a much easier job. I support this theory by pictures showing the seats affixed to the floor as opposed to sitting on a transverse tube as on V30 cars but most importantly the heater channel area looks just like on regular split beetles and pressed ribs on the floor-pan halves are transverse not longitudinal which suggests new floor design.

Car 42802 at the factory cornerstone laying ceremony

Car 42802 and a later VW38 series hardtop on an Autobahn. Not a lot of visual differences between the two.

Car 42802 on one of the many promotional tours

This could be car 42802 as what appears to be a sunroof handle is just visible in the upper corner of the windshield (two handles one on each corner of the sunroof). Also check out the distinctive four spoke wheel, the transverse ribs on the floor-pan halves and the seats attached to the floor.

Car 42802 at the end of its short life after the crash.

[allsidius]

Undis, I bow to your knowledge and collection of old photograpic evidence! It is clear that Chris Barbers theory is only half correct, since they obviously used the transverse reinforcements on the 303s. Your theory seems quite plausible, judging from the sketch in Barbers book page 136, of the central tunnel, where the floor pans are omitted. Compared to the work required to make the body, handmaking six tapered floor pans must have been a walk in the park for these guys.

As Barber states, the 303s came out only 6 to 8 weeks prior to the first VW 38, so they must have been built more or less consequtively.

Since there were no presses yet, the 38 and the 303 parts were probably made on wooden bucks, right? I remember from the 06 thread that normal split glass would not fit, because the windows were slightly different.

I also recall that not all the VW 38 cars had the square hood corners, am I right in supposing the fillets were incorporated gradually while the cars were made? I mean that one body may have the rounded corner, while the next did not?
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[splitjunkie]

The V303 and the first batch of vw38's had identical bodies. They had the square deck lid corners with inner braces on inside of deck lid, more squared off than production front hood corners, doors with turn handles on the outside, pull latches on the front hood and rear decklid and 24 slots under the rear window.

The first batch was something like 20 cars, someone correct me if I am wrong.

The next batch had rounded corners on the decklid, no inner braces and a hinge arrangement much like the production cars, turn handles on the hood and decklid, pull latches on the doors, slightly more rounded hood corners, 21 slots under the rear window (I think).

The second batch was much closer to the final production car.
_________________
Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld

[allsidius]

Thanks for the info , Splitjunkie. You guys rule!

It seems plausible that the first 20 cars or so had the square hood corners. But the catch hood latch like we saw restored to no 06 was obviously changed rather early, as a lot of the low number cars seem to have rotating L-handles, if you look at the cavalcade in Chris Barbers book. So that feature did not last batch 1 out.

On the cover of the Birth of the beetle we see Ferdinand enter IIIA-43011, with no sunroof. On page 161, the same registration is applied to a sunroof car! Since the cover shot is later, Barber speculates that the plates had just been swapped to another car, possibly due to a write-off.
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Bruce]

[allsidius]