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Q-Dog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes me think the original stuff that VW used on the firewall may still the best choice. And it's about $40 from WW.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's something I have not read about yet. It's Quick Roof with some sort of new stronger adhesive. Called Quick Roof Ultra Bond. And it's white.

So it might hold stronger. And if it did drip white on your white headliner. No biggy. Or at least not as bad as black. It's a bit more at $26 for 4" x 25'.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Quick-Roof-4-in-x-25-ft-White-Ultra-Bond-UBW425/203408515
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some great info from another thread. By manikmike:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=380934&highlight=sound+proof+mat+insulation

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:41 am

Here's a bunch of info I've been compiling... some are quotes of others, some are my random thoughts as I was grabbing info - apologies for not editing all those out. I'm not endorsing or associated with any vendors mentioned.

----

Sound Proofing and Insulation http://www.sciplus.com/index.cfm

What I have:

Reflectix: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=13353-56291-ST16025&lpage=none

Its R4 and R8 if you double it

* butyl based product while the latter two are asphalt based (asphalt may be smelly, often used in peel & stick roofing products, could be bad for lungs- not used INSIDE homes)?

* Butyl rubber sheeting is not the same as a constraint layer viscoelastic damper

* open-cell latex foams are bad and can absorb water- closed cell OK. the same properties that allow you to wash latex foam off your hands with water also mean that the cured foam can absorb water

*You need to be able to keep the drain holes open at the bottom of the body panels.

*R-value is a measure of thermal resistance- the bigger the number, the better the insulation's effectiveness

Just a couple of BASIC* things to remember:
1. If you want to reduce noise as well as thermally insulate your vehicle, you need to bond the insulation to the metal for maximum effectiveness. This is why EVERY acoustic insulator is adhered to the body panel in one way or another.

2. Any additional insulation (thermal and/or acoustic) beyond the stock application will help. "Crumpling up newspaper and stuffing it in the empty spaces will thermally insulate the vehicle better than nothing at all. I am dead serious. This is actually a survival technique; you crumple up paper and stuff it in your clothing. The air pockets created are what make the insulation Partially dried maple leaves do the same thing (it was a Boy Scout thing, that's how I know)."

3. Be very, very careful about spray-in foams. If they expand and have no where to expand to then they can possibly cause damage. They have a great potential to be messy. Some can contain components that are acidic to metal...not good. They have a VERY good potential to trap moisture. "Not recommended. The damage it can cause isn't measured in days or months but in years down the road"...

4. Foam padding has pretty much the negative of holding moisture as well. Over time it can rot and disintegrate and thus become ineffective. Neoprene isn't bad because of its dense, closed-cell nature.

5. Use quality materials so they'll last! This is something you want to do once. Of course, if you go the crumpled up newspaper route then it's just costing you time...

“Glue”: http://www.peel-n-stick.com/p-26-affix-it-strips.aspx

Ebay Item number: 140335907905 ; 330338935980; 330344531005
Look for FatMat here too

JC Whitney
Insulating Sheeting, 32" x 54" Sheet; # ZX125514A
http://www.jcwhitney.com/HEAT-SOUND-INSULATION/GP_2010475_N_111+10201+600002669_10101.jcw

Lizard Skin
http://www.lizardskin.com/
(ceramic type)

RAAMAudio
http://www.raamaudio.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27&vmcchk=1&Itemid=60

Second Skin
http://www.secondskinaudio.com/
Damplifier Pro

FatMat
MegaMat product
http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/megamat/100.html

Line-X product?

Other links:
http://www.type2.com/library/heat/intrir1.html

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277038&start=80

“I happened across helpful home depot employee who fixes old cars on a budget. He said the asphalt stuff is messy/ gooey- and steered me to "Protecto Wrap butyl hybrid window and door sealing tape". I haven't installed it yet, but I like that it has NO odor- and inexpensive too” -
naynay on samba http://savingirene.blogspot.com/

“125 square feet to do roof, walls, and nose. roof is 65 sq. ft. alone, walls are 55 sq. ft. (including front doors), 5 sq. ft. for the nose center. adds 48 pounds of butyl and foil to the bus if you buy RAMM mat- 80 sq.ft. of peel and seal will cover the floor and wheel wells, adding another 25 pounds”

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/conclusion/ looks like Damplifier outperforms Dynamat and its way cheaper to boot! especially desirable for front door cavities as you can reposition it easily, then as time goes by it adheres stronger and stronger. RAMM audio's RAMMmat is a slightly better value in the same non-asphalt category, but lighter per square foot. still, expensive stuff. $218 (shipped) for 125 square feet. Seems to me that Peel & Seal is fine for floor and over the engine, but on walls and ceiling Damplifier or RAMMmat is apparently necessary for long term adhesion. As for insulation, reflectix is great stuff and i thought i read that its R-value is 11 with a 3/4" airspace? i would not use foam in a can. even though its closed cell, it can still trap water in a corner.

https://fa.misumiusa.com/gwos/catalog/catalog_view...T_ID=12824

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/conclusion/

http://www.mcmaster.com/ for butyl rubber sheeting
http://www.rubbersheetroll.com/neoprene-rubber-medium-strength.html

http://www.bquiet.com/

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=115058&highlight=sound+proof (read)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=309327&highlight=sound+proof (second skin thread)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230667&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=218357&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64626&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72783&highlight=sound+proof

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2007/19e_24.pdf

http://www.proguardcoatings.com/rubber-liquid-coating-intro.htm

http://www.automotiveinteriors.com/HEAT_SHIELD.htm
1 Roll = 48" x 72" $32.00 per Roll + $ 14.00 S & H

http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cfm/terms/13806

For floor soundproofing?
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet...401+503220

How To Do It: http://www.ajquick.com/cars/tutorials/sound_deadener.php

Interesting MSDS: http://www.mfmbp.com/pdf/msds/MSDS-SA.pdf

?DEMILEC (USA) non-toxic spray foam insulations such as SEALECTION® 500? Probably won't be cheap but it supposedly is able to expand and contract with the surface it is adhering to.
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VWCOOL
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow... lucky I like my cars light and loud! Very Happy
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eyetzr Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post manikmike. Very well done Applause Thanks moab762 for the revisit.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My square just has cotton rag padding under the carpets. It's sure to dry out and not have trapped moisture under it like that stick on stuff. Very Happy
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moab762
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking contact cement, quick roof, jute and headliner on the roof. Then quick roof, jute and foam (or whatever they use at the upholstery shop I'm going to) on top of that under the carpeted areas. And some plastic enclosed fiberglass insulation tucked into the rear quarter panels.

Or use Raamat on the roof in place of Quick Roof.
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moab762
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick Roof Pro Aluminum in white. This might be the stuff. Same as Quick Roof but with aluminum (unlike the Quick Roof Ultra Bond I posted above - I don't think it has an aluminum layer) and the adhesive and filler is all white. Also says it sticks to itself. So no problem doing double layers.

I think this is what I'm going to use all over. But with a non-water based contact cement (second link). Let the contact cement dry. Then apply the Quick Roof Pro Aluminum. It's a bit more expensive. Like $20 instead of $15. But worth it IMHO.

I'll get some of this and normal Quick Roof and do some tests on upside down pieces of metal left out in the sun. Or maybe even heat them up with a heat gun. See if I can get it to fall off or drip. Good thing it's white though. So even if it fails it won't mess up your headliner to bad. At least not as bad as the black stuff.

http://www.cofair.com/roof.aspx

http://www.homedepot.com/p/DAP-1-gal-Weldwood-Original-Contact-Cement-207534/203661572
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moab762
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another nice older (2011) thread on HD and Lowes sound deadener. And a nice pic of someone using carpet foam over it. I'll ask some of those guys if they can weigh in here after having it in their cars for a few years.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=484033&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

EDIT - A couple of them (IIRC) did weigh in on the thread above. Saying the stuff stayed, did not run or fall off. And that it's still working well.


Last edited by moab762 on Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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moab762
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typical in car temps based on outside temps.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Below is a heat test of several popular sound deadeners. 220F for several hours. Seems a bit high for my own applications. I live near the ocean in socal. I don't see temps that high. Based on the chart above. But use your own judgement. Thought it was valuable to have in this thread.

One advantage of the more expensive ones is they do come off even after applied, subjected to heat and then cooled. That's a nice perk if you ever wanted to remove this stuff. Not the case with the vast majority of the ones he tests. Including Peal & Seal. Once that stuffs in. It's in. It would be a major pain to try to get out. Although it makes me wonder what it would be like to remove it at say freezing in the dead of winter midwest. Might be easier. I don't know.

But at less than a $100 vs several hundred dollars. I think I'm sticking with Quick Roof or Peel & Seal. Or whatever is thickest at the local big box hardware store. As far as toxicity I don't see it being any worse than tar board. Which is what we're already driving around in. Not to mention the millions of other cars burning oil based products being sucked into our lungs on a normal basis. Call me old school I guess. And cheap. Wink

So if you've got several hundred dollars to spend and you really want to be able to remove the sound deadener at some later date. I'd go with Dynamat or Second Skin. The rest don't come off.

Peal & Seal did run about a half inch. But this was at 220F for several hours. I don't see my geographic area ever getting that hot. I wish he could have done the test at say 130F. Then I think you'd see a realistic outcome of what would actually happen to the Peal & Seal in my area. But if you live in the desert you might want to take this into consideration.

I mean it's not dripping or sliding off at 220F. I find it hard to believe that it would get any worse at say 130F or even worse case scenario 160F. So if it gets up to 125F in your area - which means 160F in your car - you might want to take this into consideration. I'd at least consider covering it and/or it's seams with aluminum flashing tape. (I think that's what it's called.)

Lastly, with the Peal & Seal in mind. I don't see the benefit of the contact cement discussed earlier. It's the actual asphalt based black material that is loosening. Not the adhesive on the face of it. If it fails it's not going to be on the face of it. But rather in the body of the stuff. So the contact cement wouldn't seem to make any difference.


Link
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one thing to think about - the inside temp of the car is usually lower than the temperature of the sheet metal exposed to the sun in summer - sometimes car sheet metal gets so hot you can't even touch it - especially dark colors - those sheet metal temps may be pushing 200* (similar to the temps of a warm vw dipstick)
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moab762
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marklaken wrote:
one thing to think about - the inside temp of the car is usually lower than the temperature of the sheet metal exposed to the sun in summer - sometimes car sheet metal gets so hot you can't even touch it - especially dark colors - those sheet metal temps may be pushing 200* (similar to the temps of a warm vw dipstick)


Salient point, Mark. Duly noted. I may still buy enough of one of the pro deadeners to just do the roof. That's the only place I'm really worried about. Then do all the low points with the cheap stuff.

Anyone done any price shopping for the cheapest of the butyl deadeners? I looked for edead which performed well. But could not find it for sale. Wondering if it's off the market now or something?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

something different than the butyl , I used it in my 65 square 2 layers, roof doors, floors. A ton of people on the hotrod forums use it with good results.

http://www.lobucrod.com/index.html


I used a couple layers of the B-quiet in my 61 beetle back in '07 it was not quiet and the exposed layers would squish underfoot after a couple years on hot days.
i added a layer of the EZ Cool on the firewall over the B quiet and the engine noise and radiant heat went down considerably.

some install pics from the ez cool site

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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moab762
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
something different than the butyl , I used it in my 65 square 2 layers, roof doors, floors. A ton of people on the hotrod forums use it with good results.

http://www.lobucrod.com/index.html


I used a couple layers of the B-quiet in my 61 beetle back in '07 it was not quiet and the exposed layers would squish underfoot after a couple years on hot days.
i added a layer of the EZ Cool on the firewall over the B quiet and the engine noise and radiant heat went down considerably.

some install pics from the ez cool site

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I didn't know about the B-quiet. Did you research how expensive it was compared to the other butyl based stuff? It seems pretty low cost. I'll price it out. But was just curious.

I also looked at the ez cool. But it seems like it's more for temp reduction than sound reduction. Which I could see the need for in a front engine souped up car. My old '56 Chevy truck with a 427 in it could have used a bunch of that stuff. Man that truck got hot inside. With a bug though. I'm sure it would be that helpful. Except maybe over the engine compartment area in the back of the cabin. But I'm running a stock 1500. So I don't see it getting that hot.

I wonder if 50 sq ft would be enough B-quiet to do the roof of a bug? I'm terrible at that kind of math. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW here's the cheapest thin jute padding I could find. It's $3.50 a yard. And about 3/8th's thick.

The thicker stuff is 40oz about 5/8th's thick and is $5.50 a yard. If anyone finds a cheaper price. Let me know.

http://www.albrightssupply.com/Jute-Pad-p/jute.htm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also looked at the ez cool. But it seems like it's more for temp reduction than sound reduction. With a bug though. I'm sure it would be that helpful. Except maybe over the engine compartment area in the back of the cabin. But I'm running a stock 1500. So I don't see it getting that hot.



Q: What are the sound deadening properties of the insulation?

A: Low-E has had this product tested for noise reduction using the ASTM E90-90 method. At 125 HZ the noise reduction is 23 DB. At 400 HZ the reduction is 42 DB.

Q: Will doubling up the insulation increase the insulating and sound deadening qualities?

A: Doubling the insulation does not double its effectiveness. One layer will block 98% of the radiant heat, so the second layer will not have that heat to block. Two layers will block almost all of the heat coming into the car. You will get more sound deadening benefits, however. I would suggest putting two layers on the floor and firewall where most of the heat and sound come through.

Our insulation is constructed from a closed cell polyethylene microfoam core with a 99% pure aluminum facing on each side. The microfoam core is made up of tiny individual bubbles unlike interconnected bubbles of a sponge. That means that any liquids that come into contact with the foam core will not soak into the product. If any of the bubbles are popped, the air in those bubbles simply is combined with the space in the bubble next to it therefore retaining the closed cell structure and shape of the product.

In addition to the heat and sound deadening properties, another benefit of our product is its resistance to mold, mildew and moisture retention. Cotton or jute backed products will absorb and retain moisture which will cause expensive body panels to rust. The biggest problem while restoring an older vehicle is usually rusted out floor pans. This is caused by moisture getting trapped in the absorbent material that the factories use as heat and sound insulation under carpet.

Last but not least, our product is very lightweight. A 4'x10' roll weighs less than 2 lbs. It takes about 2 rolls for a regular cab pickup, 3 for sedans, and 4 for most wagons and vans. That means you will add less than 8 lbs when installing it in the largest vehicle.



Quote:
didn't know about the B-quiet. Did you research how expensive it was compared to the other butyl based stuff? It seems pretty low cost. I'll price it out. But was just curious.

it's sold in town here so i just picked it up, I bought based on the showdown results from back in the day. I think the 2 50ft rolls we used for the 61 beetle added up to about 50lbs, the EZ cool was a 4'x50' roll at 10lbs with plenty left over for other jobs.
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moab762
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
Quote:
I also looked at the ez cool. But it seems like it's more for temp reduction than sound reduction. With a bug though. I'm sure it would be that helpful. Except maybe over the engine compartment area in the back of the cabin. But I'm running a stock 1500. So I don't see it getting that hot.



Q: What are the sound deadening properties of the insulation?

A: Low-E has had this product tested for noise reduction using the ASTM E90-90 method. At 125 HZ the noise reduction is 23 DB. At 400 HZ the reduction is 42 DB.

Q: Will doubling up the insulation increase the insulating and sound deadening qualities?

A: Doubling the insulation does not double its effectiveness. One layer will block 98% of the radiant heat, so the second layer will not have that heat to block. Two layers will block almost all of the heat coming into the car. You will get more sound deadening benefits, however. I would suggest putting two layers on the floor and firewall where most of the heat and sound come through.

Our insulation is constructed from a closed cell polyethylene microfoam core with a 99% pure aluminum facing on each side. The microfoam core is made up of tiny individual bubbles unlike interconnected bubbles of a sponge. That means that any liquids that come into contact with the foam core will not soak into the product. If any of the bubbles are popped, the air in those bubbles simply is combined with the space in the bubble next to it therefore retaining the closed cell structure and shape of the product.

In addition to the heat and sound deadening properties, another benefit of our product is its resistance to mold, mildew and moisture retention. Cotton or jute backed products will absorb and retain moisture which will cause expensive body panels to rust. The biggest problem while restoring an older vehicle is usually rusted out floor pans. This is caused by moisture getting trapped in the absorbent material that the factories use as heat and sound insulation under carpet.

Last but not least, our product is very lightweight. A 4'x10' roll weighs less than 2 lbs. It takes about 2 rolls for a regular cab pickup, 3 for sedans, and 4 for most wagons and vans. That means you will add less than 8 lbs when installing it in the largest vehicle.



Quote:
didn't know about the B-quiet. Did you research how expensive it was compared to the other butyl based stuff? It seems pretty low cost. I'll price it out. But was just curious.

it's sold in town here so i just picked it up, I bought based on the showdown results from back in the day. I think the 2 50ft rolls we used for the 61 beetle added up to about 50lbs, the EZ cool was a 4'x50' roll at 10lbs with plenty left over for other jobs.


Now you've really thrown a wrench in the works! Wink This stuff sounds pretty good. Have you compared it to the same looking stuff at Home Depot or Lowes? I'm just wondering what the sound values of the hardware store stuff is? And how different this ez cool stuff is to it? Maybe I'll use ez cool instead of jute on top of the Quick Roof. Certainly in the engine compartment - inside the car.
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moab762
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about this stuff W1K1? 96% insulation value. EZ Cool is 98%. This is a hell of a lot cheaper:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#9367k65/=up4a82
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frost king is sold at Home Depot , its primary use is for duct insulation. if you google it you'll find that it gets very good reviews when compared to other much more expensive sound deadening products.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CiderGuy wrote:
Frost king is sold at Home Depot , its primary use is for duct insulation. if you google it you'll find that it gets very good reviews when compared to other much more expensive sound deadening products.


Ya. I was gonna compare the thickness between that and Quick Roof and Peal & Seal.
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