Subaru 2.2 vs 2.5 Gas mileage/ performance?

[a57oval]

Hi all,
I am in the beginning stages of considering a Subaru swap with a subarugears 5 Speed manual transmission. I am just starting to read and have realized the 2.5's have 30 hp more than the 2.2's.
What kind of gas mileage are you guys seeing? I have a tin top 2WD "westfakia"
If you have done a swap to a 2.2 do you wish for more power (yes we all want more power) but is there a fuel mileage penalty that would sway your decision?
Thanks for all of your help,
Peter

[dobryan]

Peter, Do you live in CA? If so a 2.2 may be the only easy way to go, if not then not an issue.

I have a 2.5 and get 18-22 mpg depending on how fast I drive on the highway. Around the burbs I get 20 mpg, on the highway at 75 mph I get 18, at 55-60 mph I get closer to 22. YMMV.

I have no experience with a 2.2...
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

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[a57oval]

Dave O,
Thanks for the response. I live in Carnation Washington so California emissions won't effect me. Thanks for the info.
Peter

[Jon_slider]

I had a Subaru 2.2 in a Vanagon Syncro, because I live in California.

I was very disappointed with the lack of power. Do not go there.

Fuel mileage is not a relevant variable. Regardless what gas motor you have, you will get essentially the same gas mileage. Because the weight of the van is a constant, and it takes a certain amount of fuel to move the mass of the vehicle a certain speed.

Definitely go with a 2.5, its a MUCH better option, because if you want to, you can go faster uphill than with a 2.2.

I hated my 2.2 on the freeway above 5000 feet in rolling hills of Arizona and New Mexico. I could not keep up with 75mph traffic, and often had to use 3rd on hills... on the freeway! A 2.2 at altitude is a DOG. Ask me how I really feel, LOL...
_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[geodude]

2.2 in a Carat with an auto, stock rims, and tire size. I get 21.something mpg consistently. Good power upgrade compared to stock, but not a rocket ship. Fully loaded to go camping the van does okay until you get up in the high Sierra and then it definitely is running out of power, but where the stock engine was pushing us at 35mph at the top of the passes the 2.2 has us up around 50mph. Lower down (0-5000 ft) its fine and I can easily keep up with traffic. This is all similar to the 2.0 inline-4 I did previously. Made the van useful and reliable, but you won't win any races. In CA you are looking at the 2.2 or the 1.8T. I would have gone 1.8T if I had the money (you need Stephan's kit to do it legally in CA with the auto). But for $3,500 I got a useable van that can make it over the Sierra and its reliable.
_________________
1988 GL Camper
1991 Multivan — the basket case

[termuehlen]

I have a 2.2L large block Subaru conversion in a full Westfalia with an automatic transmission. I consistently get 16 to 19 mpg.

Your question about gas mileage is interesting to me because I have seen quotes of anywhere from 14 to 26mpg for Subaru converted vans on TheSamba. All things being equal, I would expect a 2.2 to get better gas mileage than a 2.5. But clearly, there are variations in vehicle weight, tire size, transmissions, etc. that make it hard to figure out the difference in gas mileage.

Do you know if anyone is doing Subaru installations with a focus on improved gas mileage? Since you are not in California, I wonder if you have any options available to you that would provide better gas mileage. Does an OBD2 install get better gas mileage than an OBD1?
_________________
1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx

[16CVs]

Whatever factors come into play and opinions differ. My Syncro Multivan went from about 14.5 to almost 17 on average with a swap from a stock 2.1 to a stock 2.2 Subaru. Subaru is a more efficient engine, I agree it is not as powerful as my friends 3.0 6 hole Subaru ,but except for the 3 times a year I either to Tahoe a or over the Grapevine it is miles ahead of a stock WBX.
For those guys doing conversions ,you should keep in mind that when you do sell a converted Van that there is a good chance it will end up in California . I have seen tons of vans foe sale that will not Smog in California. I know every one is going to keep their vans forever, but some times forever comes quicker than you think.

Stacy
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[Jon_slider]

[wyldryce]

I wouldn't honestly think the difference would be staggering between the two, especially if you are going to the trouble of installing the subaru 5mt. My 85 Westy with the EJ22 is pretty peppy IMO for a Vanagon, and I also own a 2001 Forester with the 2.5. While I guess I'd like the 2.5 for the marginal power improvement, I think the EJ22 is proven as a far more reliable powerplant from a headgasket perspective, and given the difficulty in bleeding cooling systems in a Vanagon, a more tolerant powerplant is a desireable trait

I may consider doing a homebrew Turbo/intercooled build on my EJ22 at somepoint...but really from what I've read the Subaru 5mt tranny is the best improvement overall for proper gearing to take advantage of the Subaru's power delivery traits.

[16CVs]

Stacy
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[Franklinstower]

oval dude,
The 2.2 isn't much of an upgrade for a full westy or syncro, but are fine for the tintops. The 92-94 2.2 is a bullet proof engine, BUT, if you are considering the early obd1 - it really limits you to that engine only. The later OBD2 2.2's allow for a much easier swap to the 2.5 if more power is desired.

I was still downshifting in my 2.2 over the passes in my westy, but you can easily go 60+ in 3rd because these engines easily can run at 5k all day if needed. The combo of a 2.2 and a 5 speed would have eliminated that though - especially in a tintop. I drove Clymers 2.5/5speed combo - it was awesome. What should have been done from the factory in my mind.

You are very close to many with both 2.2's and 2.5's, so I would drive both engine conversions and decide. I don't think you will see a hit in mileage from the 2.2 to the 2.5 - maybe 1 mpg. But it is so hard to tell due to how fast you drive and how the mileage really goes down with speed.

You should have run down 202 a few weeks ago for the Meet at Marymoor. There were dozens of both there!

Paul
_________________
'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug

[_smoker_]

I would imagine there isn't a huge mileage difference between the 2.2 and 2.5... but what about a 2.2 with the bus transaxle vs that same 2.2 with the subie 5mt? I've been counting on putting a turbo ABA in my van, but reading all these threads about the subie trans has me second guessing myself... I had a 97 legacy wagon with the 2.2 and 5 speed. That car was amazing. I owned it from 150k to 250k miles, and it didn't ask for anything except oil changes and a timing belt job, it got 30mpg on the highway, and would go through a foot of snow without thinking twice.
_________________
I like Volkswagens.

[iliketowalk]

Our Westy Weekender poptop with the Phase 2 EJ22 scoots just fine, MPG is typically 18-22 - it's capable of speeds that the van really is not, I've zipped around at 85mph a few times and there was still more to give, I would guess top speed is 90-95mph.

If you spend a lot of time above 5k feet, maybe the lack of power would get annoying, but I think it would be fine. Granted I'm not hauling around a kitchen, or driving two extra wheels. Under 5000 feet it will climb all but the very steepest grades in 4th gear. The later EJ22 (Phase 2) have about +10hp +10tq over the earlier motors, which isn't insignificant.

I would really choose one over the other based on the condition of the motor / miles / price / etc as opposed to overall speed / performance - they're both huge upgrades over a stock WBX motor.
_________________
1986 Weekender "Birch"

[Syncro Jael]

Our EJ22 has been in the Syncro Westy since 2004. It is an early KEP kit. I bought it in Calif with the badge intact. I live in Utah and am always climbing canyons to get anywhere. It does lack the power you would want, but I have learned to downshift and can usually run 65 at 4900 RPM and unless it is over 6% grades it is just fine sitting there.

Mileage varies but is always 18-22 mpg.

I would love the additional power, but am reluctant to add more stress to the transaxle and loose the ability to sell to a future owner in Calif.

I may be slower than most of you, but I "WILL" get there not much behind you.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat)

[ftp2leta]

Theoretically, the 2006+ have around 178hp fully floored and about 150 with the gas pedal at 1/3 or less (funny but they are specs). The second intake valve being almost close this way.

The Legacy SOHC 2011-2013 is supposed to have 190hp

In other words, if you drive all day long at 50-55mph you should get 340+ mile per tank.

But I did so with my 2002 full 16 valves in Mexico, I was close to 600km (370miles) driving 85-90kmph (50-55 mph).

A good 2.2L in full shape will follow any 2.5L on acceleration until 50 mph is reached.

Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
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[wcdennis]

What engine you choose partly depends on the Subarugears R&P you choose. If you go for the 4.11, I would say you definitely need the extra power of the 2.5L. If you decide to drop to the 4.44, the 2.2L would be great in a lighter van. With the 4.44 R&P, gears 3-4 would actually be slightly lower than the stock transmission so, climbing hills in 4th would be a breeze.

[a57oval]

This is great information.

wcdennis; great point about which Ring and Pinion I choose may dictate the engine.
Syncro Jael, dobryan,and Iliketowalk: thank you for the MPG figures and your honest analysis of the performance.
Franklinstower: Great info. I would like to find "Clymer" and get some input from him about MPG figures.
Geodude: great info.
Jon_slider: Thanks for the thoughts on performance. What were/are your MPG figures?

You guys have provided me with a bunch of real world information. It looks like I need to research the ring and pinion choices from Subarugears and get some more MPG figures from the 2.5 guys.

Peter

[alaskadan]

My daily driving is about half highway and half very hilly terrain. My van is a tintop thats usually empty or loaded with tools/materials. 07' 2.5 and Im getting 20 to 23 mpg.

[dobryan]

My impression is that there is no significant mpg difference betwween the 2.2 and the 2.5.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[alaskadan]

Havent driven a 2.2 conversion but it sounds like the extra .3 litres makes a world of difference.