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Synthetic motor oil - Thieving oil companies
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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Synthetic motor oil - Thieving oil companies Reply with quote

What is synthetic motor oil? How do consumers know if the motor oil they're paying a premium for is synthetic? Does the product deliver the additional performance implied by the term ? The answer to the first question is easy. Whereas synthetic motor oils 40 years ago were those primarily made from polyalphaolefin (API Group IV ) and esters (API Group V) that changed in 1999when Mobile challenged Castrols use of API Group III as a basis for synthetic motor oil . Castrol prevailed in that argument ,which played out before the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureaus. And although the was for single product , lubricant marketers interpreted it to allow all Group III base oils to be included under the synthetic umbrella. With a significantly lower cost and higher profit incentive it didn't take more than a few years before Group IIIs displaced most of the PAO in synthetic PCMO.

Group III base oils are manufactured by processing schemes utilizing hydrocracking and catalytic dew axing of crude oil fractions . In addition they now include gas to liquid base oils produced from the waxy output of FIscherTropsch natural gas reactions BUt its important to note , whereas GTL base oils are in the API Group III bucket their properties more closely resemble PAO than they do crude oil derived Group III . Tp highlight this ,some point to GTL base oils higher viscosity index ,lower cold cranking performance and lower Noack volatility . In addition they compare alkanes,,mono and polycycloparaffins and other properties to demonstrate that GTL is chemically more like PAO than like catalytically isomerized and dewaxed Group III .

But rather than get mired in API base oil class envy and the technical tug of war about the advantages of one group III vs another. How does the consumer that the motor oil they are paying a premium for is in fact synthetic? One answer is they know because it says so on the label. Further the price of the products labeled synthetic leave little reason to believe they're anything but.

Facts are consumers may need more because the word synthetic is no more than a marketing term whereas the lines to separate synthetic base oils from conventional are established,they are muddied and muddled when it comes to defining finished synthetic motor oils because of this the barn door has been left wide open for cheaters to run free and graze in the rich field of synthetics with products that may have no business being there. At the risk of showing how easy it is to game the system what's to stop a blender from heavily diluting its detergent inhibitor and viscosity modifier additives with a Group II 100N diluent oil, to the point where the DI/DM treat is greater than half the blend - and then call the finished product synthetic even though it contains less than 50 percent Group III . Bottom line there are no safeguards to protect the consumer from being duped. Good luck Very Happy
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Thieving oil companies Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
Bottom line there are no safeguards to protect the consumer from being duped. Good luck Very Happy



Pffff... is this topic really about oil?..... Confused

There are no safeguards against most things the consumer buys...
Most assume what is purchased is actually... whats purchased.... Anxious whether it be gas, milk, medications, anything..

Ever hear of meat glue.. ?
How about redating products for longer shelf life.?

If you think oil companies are thieves??? Simple... Dont buy the product.. ....

Bait and switch... has been around a long time..
This sounds like just another topic to be locked for political views soon...

.
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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Thieving oil companies Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
Zundfolge1432 wrote:
Bottom line there are no safeguards to protect the consumer from being duped. Good luck Very Happy



Pffff... is this topic really about oil?..... Confused

There are no safeguards against most things the consumer buys...
Most assume what is purchased is actually... whats purchased.... Anxious whether it be gas, milk, medications, anything..

Ever hear of meat glue.. ?
How about redating products for longer shelf life.?

If you think oil companies are thieves??? Simple... Dont buy the product.. ....

There is nothing political about this info found in an industry trade magazine. The intent is to educate the consumer that's all..

Bait and switch... has been around a long time..
This sounds like just another topic to be locked for political views soon...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No politic just info from a trade journal
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can informing gullible gear heads in an automotive forum be reason to lock a topic ?

From a top-notch oil company that produces both dino AND synthetic oils:

http://www.lelubricants.com/lit/news/White%20Papers/beyond_synthetics_vs_mineral_basestock.pdf

"Many times synthetic base oil will not hold enough additive in solution to deliver the needed performance for the application."

http://www.lelubricants.com/lit/news/White%20Papers/when_do_synthetic_lub.pdf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ hahaha.. yep.. 6 7/8 please...

gears wrote:
How can informing gullible gear heads in an automotive forum be reason to lock a topic ?



Oh I dont know....... Rolling Eyes but the last reply before this one this comes to mind..



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WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would be better with an attribute to the article this was copied from. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-Dog wrote:
Would be better with an attribute to the article this was copied from. Wink


Agreed. Always better to read the original and form one's own opinion. No disrespect intended to the OP.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's different about this "Synthetic" revelation than the fact that about 1/2 of the garbage highly processed foods sold in a food store today is now .....
"Organic"?

Loose rules, slack enforcement and customers flock to purchase certain Words at higher prices.......

Welcome to the free market place!
Buyer Beware......... Educate yourself..... Purchase accordingly.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we get a TL;DR?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
^ hahaha.. yep.. 6 7/8 please...

gears wrote:
How can informing gullible gear heads in an automotive forum be reason to lock a topic ?



Oh I dont know....... Rolling Eyes but the last reply before this one this comes to mind..



.


I was kind of hoping it would be in english, rather than legalese. Rolling Eyes
But then what do I know, I use regular old dino oil myself. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as for oil I mixx lots of diferent oils togeather. both syn ,part syn,blend syn, and dino oil's from many companys,I changed my vw's oil yesterday, it was, mobile syn,quakerdffyblend,pennssyn,kendall syn,and possiably another. but as for the rip off.well I got some new oscarmayer turkey samwitch meat a month ago.....they nolonger carry tyson.....WTF what was that oscarmayer shit!!! I have doubts it had any meat in it at all.but with that said the garbage can did not complain at all.and it was the same price as real tyson sliced turkey breast,not mashed shit blended with floor wax&fluffernagun. fuck you oscar. mayournuts fall off in your balonie crap. (sorry everett)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chaosisme wrote:
Can we get a TL;DR?


Eh, since I went ahead and read it, sure.
Article claims that in 1999 Mobile sued Castrol for using a lower quality (cheaper!) grade base for their Synthetic-labeled oil. Court said nah, so now all the other oil companies changed to the cheaper grade base to increase their profit margins.

/shrug.
I don't know how much it really matters as far as real world performance.

I suspect for aircooled VW engines it doesn't make much of a diff. Like, at all.
For watercooled that go a little further between oil changes, maybe? If it was making a noticeable difference you'd have a bunch of very, very upset consumers that paid for for synthetic but had their engines toasted.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was young, I'd help my Dad service used cars he would purchase.

I clearly remember the obscene quantities of Paraffin build up on the rockers under the valve covers. He'd put in some kerosene and run it a bit to dissolve the mess plus we would scrape it out with a putty knife.
I'm talking about old flat heads and straight sixes........

You young folk here haven't ever seen nor can you even visualize this phenomenon.

Why am I Saying this?
Because I strongly believe that even the crappiest no name oil sold today is multiple times better than the top quality oil that was used back in the 1950's on a routine basis.

This photo is newer, shows an overhead cam which was not the norm back in the day. It does however illustrate very well immense build up under the valve covers.............

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typically the main attributes advertized for synthetics are:
Better suspension of contaminants with acidity build up
better resistance to thermal breakdown at normal peak oil temps over a longer lifespan
serious reduction of friction as compared to conventional oils.

Many publications, trade journals and other organisation's do comparisons and lab tests of various synthetics every few years.
just do some searching for results and articles.
Most high end brand name synthetics from those I have read over the last 7-10 years meet or exceed the requirements/attributes they say they should.

If you find one in an article that does what it advertizes.....buy it. Aside from that....who cares if they found a cheaper way to produce it.

I think that the oil and fuel price discussions....unless you drive your vehicle for work....are largely worthless.

Synthetic oils that I have used work NOTICABLY better. If an oil change costs me $30 extra...who cares? You do it once or twice a year and the difference is the cost of about 4 mixed drinks in a bar or 2-3 lunches.
keep your perspective.

Also...just like razor blades....its supply and demand. Of course the synthetics are artifically high in price. They sell less of it....you run it 2-3 times longer. They are getting their money either way. Its not like the cost of housing in your life. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
I clearly remember the obscene quantities of Paraffin build up on the rockers under the valve covers.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



What caused that? Did they add paraffin to the oil? What was the benefit?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive witnessed newer engines that look juts like that ^...... all from long or seldom oil change intervals..
Once the oil is cooked.. its cooked..

.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cook old oil one time is all it takes,then the cooked oil obsorbs the next oil that gets on to it and it just keeps growing.quakerstate had a reputation for this.but I dont know if it was infact thier oil that was worst or just because it was one of the most used oil around.water and or moisture also helps it along as the funk gets thick on the upper parts that dont get water cooled. I dont know how well oil by it's self lubracates,so they added stuf they thought would help, like that slipery stuff wax(parafin).witch also builds up a coating witch can help reduce wear. well there were a lot of snake oils back in the old days befor we could check the dna of oil and tell exzactly witch well it came out of. and with this new tech we have also found new stuff to replace the old stuff.like castrol has titanium in thier oil...well thats what it says but I doubt it,but it's probably true,probably somethen lik an ionized gass of titanium bubbled up through the zillion gallon tank of thier oil and wala!!! majickel oil. just like my spellen Shocked dont blame the oils funk on the oil when most drivers dont thing any thing about thier oil untill a light tells them too.and then most think it's a scam and disreguard it. hey I got's an Idear, go's zout ans changes your oils!!! does yer filter whuiles yours at zit. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember it as Pennsylvania grade motor oil had high paraffin content. Maybe I'm wrong but I imagine top shelf synth oil carnival barkers also have to have the latest I phone.

Bill
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