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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:25 am Post subject: Synthetic motor oil - Thieving oil companies |
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What is synthetic motor oil? How do consumers know if the motor oil they're paying a premium for is synthetic? Does the product deliver the additional performance implied by the term ? The answer to the first question is easy. Whereas synthetic motor oils 40 years ago were those primarily made from polyalphaolefin (API Group IV ) and esters (API Group V) that changed in 1999when Mobile challenged Castrols use of API Group III as a basis for synthetic motor oil . Castrol prevailed in that argument ,which played out before the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureaus. And although the was for single product , lubricant marketers interpreted it to allow all Group III base oils to be included under the synthetic umbrella. With a significantly lower cost and higher profit incentive it didn't take more than a few years before Group IIIs displaced most of the PAO in synthetic PCMO.
Group III base oils are manufactured by processing schemes utilizing hydrocracking and catalytic dew axing of crude oil fractions . In addition they now include gas to liquid base oils produced from the waxy output of FIscherTropsch natural gas reactions BUt its important to note , whereas GTL base oils are in the API Group III bucket their properties more closely resemble PAO than they do crude oil derived Group III . Tp highlight this ,some point to GTL base oils higher viscosity index ,lower cold cranking performance and lower Noack volatility . In addition they compare alkanes,,mono and polycycloparaffins and other properties to demonstrate that GTL is chemically more like PAO than like catalytically isomerized and dewaxed Group III .
But rather than get mired in API base oil class envy and the technical tug of war about the advantages of one group III vs another. How does the consumer that the motor oil they are paying a premium for is in fact synthetic? One answer is they know because it says so on the label. Further the price of the products labeled synthetic leave little reason to believe they're anything but.
Facts are consumers may need more because the word synthetic is no more than a marketing term whereas the lines to separate synthetic base oils from conventional are established,they are muddied and muddled when it comes to defining finished synthetic motor oils because of this the barn door has been left wide open for cheaters to run free and graze in the rich field of synthetics with products that may have no business being there. At the risk of showing how easy it is to game the system what's to stop a blender from heavily diluting its detergent inhibitor and viscosity modifier additives with a Group II 100N diluent oil, to the point where the DI/DM treat is greater than half the blend - and then call the finished product synthetic even though it contains less than 50 percent Group III . Bottom line there are no safeguards to protect the consumer from being duped. Good luck |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Thieving oil companies |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Bottom line there are no safeguards to protect the consumer from being duped. Good luck |
Pffff... is this topic really about oil?.....
There are no safeguards against most things the consumer buys...
Most assume what is purchased is actually... whats purchased.... whether it be gas, milk, medications, anything..
Ever hear of meat glue.. ?
How about redating products for longer shelf life.?
If you think oil companies are thieves??? Simple... Dont buy the product.. ....
Bait and switch... has been around a long time..
This sounds like just another topic to be locked for political views soon...
. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Thieving oil companies |
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VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Bottom line there are no safeguards to protect the consumer from being duped. Good luck |
Pffff... is this topic really about oil?.....
There are no safeguards against most things the consumer buys...
Most assume what is purchased is actually... whats purchased.... whether it be gas, milk, medications, anything..
Ever hear of meat glue.. ?
How about redating products for longer shelf life.?
If you think oil companies are thieves??? Simple... Dont buy the product.. ....
There is nothing political about this info found in an industry trade magazine. The intent is to educate the consumer that's all..
Bait and switch... has been around a long time..
This sounds like just another topic to be locked for political views soon... |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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No politic just info from a trade journal |
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gears Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002 Posts: 4391 Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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^ hahaha.. yep.. 6 7/8 please...
gears wrote: |
How can informing gullible gear heads in an automotive forum be reason to lock a topic ?
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Oh I dont know....... but the last reply before this one this comes to mind..
. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8689 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Q-Dog wrote: |
Would be better with an attribute to the article this was copied from. |
Agreed. Always better to read the original and form one's own opinion. No disrespect intended to the OP. _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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chaosisme Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 1256 Location: Orange County, Ca
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Can we get a TL;DR? _________________ '65 1500 S [quareback]
'68 FI Sunroof Squareback
'70 Westy
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
^ hahaha.. yep.. 6 7/8 please...
gears wrote: |
How can informing gullible gear heads in an automotive forum be reason to lock a topic ?
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Oh I dont know....... but the last reply before this one this comes to mind..
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I was kind of hoping it would be in english, rather than legalese.
But then what do I know, I use regular old dino oil myself. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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as for oil I mixx lots of diferent oils togeather. both syn ,part syn,blend syn, and dino oil's from many companys,I changed my vw's oil yesterday, it was, mobile syn,quakerdffyblend,pennssyn,kendall syn,and possiably another. but as for the rip off.well I got some new oscarmayer turkey samwitch meat a month ago.....they nolonger carry tyson.....WTF what was that oscarmayer shit!!! I have doubts it had any meat in it at all.but with that said the garbage can did not complain at all.and it was the same price as real tyson sliced turkey breast,not mashed shit blended with floor wax&fluffernagun. fuck you oscar. mayournuts fall off in your balonie crap. (sorry everett) |
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windfish Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2012 Posts: 1126 Location: NC
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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chaosisme wrote: |
Can we get a TL;DR? |
Eh, since I went ahead and read it, sure.
Article claims that in 1999 Mobile sued Castrol for using a lower quality (cheaper!) grade base for their Synthetic-labeled oil. Court said nah, so now all the other oil companies changed to the cheaper grade base to increase their profit margins.
/shrug.
I don't know how much it really matters as far as real world performance.
I suspect for aircooled VW engines it doesn't make much of a diff. Like, at all.
For watercooled that go a little further between oil changes, maybe? If it was making a noticeable difference you'd have a bunch of very, very upset consumers that paid for for synthetic but had their engines toasted. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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When I was young, I'd help my Dad service used cars he would purchase.
I clearly remember the obscene quantities of Paraffin build up on the rockers under the valve covers. He'd put in some kerosene and run it a bit to dissolve the mess plus we would scrape it out with a putty knife.
I'm talking about old flat heads and straight sixes........
You young folk here haven't ever seen nor can you even visualize this phenomenon.
Why am I Saying this?
Because I strongly believe that even the crappiest no name oil sold today is multiple times better than the top quality oil that was used back in the 1950's on a routine basis.
This photo is newer, shows an overhead cam which was not the norm back in the day. It does however illustrate very well immense build up under the valve covers.............
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Typically the main attributes advertized for synthetics are:
Better suspension of contaminants with acidity build up
better resistance to thermal breakdown at normal peak oil temps over a longer lifespan
serious reduction of friction as compared to conventional oils.
Many publications, trade journals and other organisation's do comparisons and lab tests of various synthetics every few years.
just do some searching for results and articles.
Most high end brand name synthetics from those I have read over the last 7-10 years meet or exceed the requirements/attributes they say they should.
If you find one in an article that does what it advertizes.....buy it. Aside from that....who cares if they found a cheaper way to produce it.
I think that the oil and fuel price discussions....unless you drive your vehicle for work....are largely worthless.
Synthetic oils that I have used work NOTICABLY better. If an oil change costs me $30 extra...who cares? You do it once or twice a year and the difference is the cost of about 4 mixed drinks in a bar or 2-3 lunches.
keep your perspective.
Also...just like razor blades....its supply and demand. Of course the synthetics are artifically high in price. They sell less of it....you run it 2-3 times longer. They are getting their money either way. Its not like the cost of housing in your life. Ray |
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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djkeev wrote: |
I clearly remember the obscene quantities of Paraffin build up on the rockers under the valve covers.
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What caused that? Did they add paraffin to the oil? What was the benefit? _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Ive witnessed newer engines that look juts like that ^...... all from long or seldom oil change intervals..
Once the oil is cooked.. its cooked..
. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:00 am Post subject: |
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cook old oil one time is all it takes,then the cooked oil obsorbs the next oil that gets on to it and it just keeps growing.quakerstate had a reputation for this.but I dont know if it was infact thier oil that was worst or just because it was one of the most used oil around.water and or moisture also helps it along as the funk gets thick on the upper parts that dont get water cooled. I dont know how well oil by it's self lubracates,so they added stuf they thought would help, like that slipery stuff wax(parafin).witch also builds up a coating witch can help reduce wear. well there were a lot of snake oils back in the old days befor we could check the dna of oil and tell exzactly witch well it came out of. and with this new tech we have also found new stuff to replace the old stuff.like castrol has titanium in thier oil...well thats what it says but I doubt it,but it's probably true,probably somethen lik an ionized gass of titanium bubbled up through the zillion gallon tank of thier oil and wala!!! majickel oil. just like my spellen dont blame the oils funk on the oil when most drivers dont thing any thing about thier oil untill a light tells them too.and then most think it's a scam and disreguard it. hey I got's an Idear, go's zout ans changes your oils!!! does yer filter whuiles yours at zit. |
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vdubyah73 Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2003 Posts: 2541 Location: somewhere in Texas, my house has wheels
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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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I remember it as Pennsylvania grade motor oil had high paraffin content. Maybe I'm wrong but I imagine top shelf synth oil carnival barkers also have to have the latest I phone.
Bill _________________ burning down the house
73 bounty hunter, sold.
'77 transporter, junked had crotch rot.
Dubless, but have a CPR built stroker waiting for a new to me Beetle
'93 Fleetwood Bounder 34' |
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