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advinnie
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Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1389
Location: oxfordshire
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 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:46 am Post subject: stock 20mm oil pump on a full flowed engine |
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Hi all just a quick one here. I have just built myself a 2054cc beetle engine (74mm crank with 94mm pistons ) and it has a full flow oil system so I can use a external filter anyway I was planning on using my stock oil pump witch has 20mm gears but have heard that this pump will not be up to the job is this true if so what size pump do I need 26mm, 30mm or larger?
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:51 am Post subject: |
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What case?
Late model dual relief cases used a 26mm pump.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Usually they use a 26mm oil pump. |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1389
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| The case is a super race case with dual pressure relief. My pump gears are 21mm not 20mm sorry about that. |
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Quokka42
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Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: |
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By the time the oil gets past the filter you are probably going to end up with a lack of pressure at the bearings - use a 26mm pump.
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advinnie
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Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1389
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Ok then a new 26mm pump it is  I take it that a 30mm pump is just to big I only ask cause I've just found someone selling one. |
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madmike
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Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:58 am Post subject: |
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30mm can be used if you have a deep sump?
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| madmike wrote: |
| 30mm can be used if you have a deep sump? |
Deep sump has nothing to do with the pump. A 30mm with new bearings will cause excessive oil pressure and cause the pressure relief valve to be opened and dumping oil.
More is not always better.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1389
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Right I will definitely get a 26mm gear pump. Just curious what size are stock 1600cc engine oil pump |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| advinnie wrote: |
| Right I will definitely get a 26mm gear pump. Just curious what size are stock 1600cc engine oil pump |
26mm was the stock size for a 1600.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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advinnie
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Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Ok now if the 26mm gears are for a stick 1600 motor are you sure they will give enough flow now a external filter has been fitted? |
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Glenn
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| advinnie wrote: |
| Ok now if the 26mm gears are for a stick 1600 motor are you sure they will give enough flow now a external filter has been fitted? |
Yes... I have a 26mm pump in this.....(2180, FK8, 9.5cr)
50psi oil pressure @ 3000rpm with 10W-30 oil.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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advinnie
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Joined: November 18, 2011
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Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Cheers mate 26mm it is thanks for the help all |
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Mr.Duncan
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Joined: May 12, 2012
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Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| advinnie wrote: |
| Ok now if the 26mm gears are for a stick 1600 motor are you sure they will give enough flow now a external filter has been fitted? |
Yes... I have a 26mm pump in this.....(2180, FK8, 9.5cr)
50psi oil pressure @ 3000rpm with 10W-30 oil.
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Glenn, Correct me if im wrong, But wouldn't that pressure @ that rpm cause the oil cooler to be bypassed?
I assume that's HOT pressure (your temp gauge), since cold oil @ that RPM would be 60+ psi
The bypass is active when the oil is over 40-45 psi?
Let me know
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Glenn
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:35 am Post subject: |
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I think the bypass is more like 80psi.
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Glenn
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bugguy1967
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: |
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21s work well with full flow systems, but go with a 26mm for insurance. They make up in volume for a lack of blueprinting.
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Last edited by bugguy1967 on Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kadub
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Joined: November 04, 2004
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Location: Auburn, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am Post subject: |
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I run a 21mm pump in my turbo 2110 engine with"perfect" pressure for the stock oil control/cooler system. You DON'T want or need 50psi above 3,000 rpms once everything is up to temp. I run a full flow filter, grooved lifters and a journal bearing turbo. 21mm pump does the job very well with mobil 1 0w-40 oil in fact. 26mm won't "hurt" anything, but it would benefit you to do some research on the stock oil control system  .
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advinnie
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Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1389
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I fully understand how a stock oil system works ive had no trouble at all with the 21mm pump in my 1699cc engine but with the extra oil lines (1/2" diameter) and the restriction the oil filter will give wouldn't the 21mm pump lack the flow/ pressure to work the vw oil system correctly? |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| advinnie wrote: |
| I fully understand how a stock oil system works ive had no trouble at all with the 21mm pump in my 1699cc engine but with the extra oil lines (1/2" diameter) and the restriction the oil filter will give wouldn't the 21mm pump lack the flow/ pressure to work the vw oil system correctly? |
the larger pump will give you more margin with your added restrictions. for folks worried about the excess pressure causing the cooler to be bypassed, the solution is a remote cooler with a thermostatic rather than pressure based bypass valve. That is what I use in my van. I prefer the larger pumps when I route a cooler and filter. On one car I have over 25 feet of oil hose/piping.
when the engine is old and tired, the extra margin a larger pump gives may help out more than when the engine is new. if you only had 30 psi at 3000 rpm when the motor is new, what will it be when things are well worn?
Of course there is no free lunch, a larger pump pushing pressures that is bypassed is wasting power that could be used to turn the tires.
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Boolean
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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The flow requirement is the same, almost no matter how much oil piping you have. A restrictive filter may have to be overcome with more pressure, but that would be a bad filter anyway.
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