| Author |
Message |
66brm
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 3676
Location: Perth Western Australia
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
 |
|
| hazetguy wrote: |
Looks like your case is going to need a line bore. |
Better to measure first than rely on a pic on the internet, more than likely its just staining from the oil passage but its hard to run a finger nail across it from here.....
_________________
Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
| modok wrote: |
| I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
motofly196
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2008
Posts: 1467
Location: Eastern WA
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
| One can wish it won't need an align bore....but I can see the same groove that Hazetguy sees. I haven't torn down many engines that the bearing hasn't pounded out the case requiring machine work. I have ONE low mileage 36hp case and ONE industrial engine case that don't require any machine work. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Add in the fact there is a limited supply of 36hp bearings, which normally requires you cutting the case and crank to the best bearings you can find for your case/crank.
Check out www.aircooledresearch.com for 36hp parts. Matthew is great to work with |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hazetguy
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
| 66brm wrote: |
| Better to measure first than rely on a pic on the internet, more than likely its just staining from the oil passage but its hard to run a finger nail across it from here..... |
this is accurate. nothing like an in-person inspection. i would clean the surface up very well with acetone or lacquer thinner, and then shine a flashlight across the surface (see pic below as an extreme example). then again, you'll probably be able to see the wear better when the oil and staining is cleaned off. running your finger over it will feel it.
i can see the tell-tale signs of needing a line bore. aside from the staining which would clean up, there is fretting where the bearing seats, and the clearest indication to me are the shiny edges along the two edges where the bearing has beaten into the case, see arrows. i would be very surprised if the case does not need a line bore, which then can lead to other issues during reassembly.
rimco seems to be able to supply bearings for line bore cases, and there was a run of aftermarket bearings not oo long ago, so there may still be some of those around too.
KingOfAces picture with arrows to show wear:
extreme example:
_________________
thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
62ItalianRagtop
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 1354
Location: Italy
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Very nice oval and congratulations for the tenacity with which you are facing this rebuilding.
I think that you will be able to recover the og paint under the green one 
_________________
LOOKING FOR 62 ENGINE WITH NUMBER FROM 6.904.xxx TO 6.915.xxx
http://tettodistraccio.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KingOfAces
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014
Posts: 140
Location: West Virginia
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Oh jeeze that's a lot of replies. I love the interest in the thread though.
I finally removed both the cylinders 1 and 2 from their head. The valves are pretty stuck, so I splashed some more atf/acetone on them and will try to remove them tomorrow. I removed the crankshaft pulley. Finally, I also was able to remove the valve seats from 3 and 4's head.
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| That is a cheesy puller. Either send it back, or recycle it. Pulling on the outer diameter of the pulley is a great way to bend it up... |
I heard a Harmonic Balancer Puller will work for pulling the crankshaft pulley. Because I am lazy and don't have a lot of money at the moment to toss towards more tools and materials (This semesters tuition just hit, like a truck no less) I decided to borrow one from Advance Auto Parts, since the local one has a tool loaning program. It worked like a charm. Took a little work to get just right, but it worked. I'll describe what I did in the pictures.
| Abscate wrote: |
| get some painter tape and attach positive labels to stuff... |
I just happen to have a roll of Blue Tape left over from when I primed the fuel tank. Unfortunately, it was worthless when I tried attaching it to the connecting rods. Luckily, the little numbers I drew on them are still there, for now. I'll relabel them with masking tape or whatever I can find in the house just in case. However, the Blue Tape was actually very helpful for labeling the valves.
What can't fit in a bag is in the sorting bin the old dizzy is sitting on. What can't fit in those are sitting in old and labeled boxes.
| Abscate wrote: |
| Did you snag your washers from the bottom of the distributor drive? |
I grabbed it when I started cleaning the case. It's on the drive gear as we speak.
| Abscate wrote: |
Oh, and don't worry about screwing up this car.
Liquid nitrogen comes in old Dewar Scotch bottles by the way, you probably have Freon in that can. |
What is that supposed to mean?
Just kidding.
The bottle of whatever I got has 2-Tetrafluoroethane, whatever the heck that is. I can confirm that it's quite cold. Unfortunately, the bottle lasted long enough for me to get the guides out of one head. I'll have to find another one for #1 and #2's head.
| 66brm wrote: |
| hazetguy wrote: |
| Looks like your case is going to need a line bore. |
|
Unfortunately, hazeetguy is correct. I don't even need to do the 'nail test', the grove is very obvious when I run even just my bare finger over it.
This is where this rebuild comes to a screeching halt, mostly. Between work and this upcoming semester, I will not have time to come up to my Grandmother's house until Spring Break.
| txoval wrote: |
| Add in the fact there is a limited supply of 36hp bearings, which normally requires you cutting the case and crank to the best bearings you can find for your case/crank. |
I read about that, and it only complicates the issue.
So I'm going to bring most of the parts that need machining (case, crank, cylinder heads, etc) down with me when I leave on Friday. Hopefully I can get all that done before I come back on Spring Break to reassemble the majority of the engine. I'll have to tackle the tinware and heater boxes then though. I cannot fit everything in my Buick.
I should invest in a truck.
| 62ItalianRagtop wrote: |
Very nice oval and congratulations for the tenacity with which you are facing this rebuilding.
I think that you will be able to recover the og paint under the green one |
Thank you.
That's pretty spooky though. I was reading a thread last night about how splitwindowsyndicate stripped his Oval down to the factory paint which was under three other layers of paint and thought how wonderful it would be if I could do the same with mine.
If possible, I would really, really like to return it to the original paint. I don't have any problems with the green my Granddad painted it, but I would rather it be the original paint.
Enough blabbing aside, here's some pictures.
I started it off fairly simple. However, I quickly found out that the threaded rod the puller came with was almost exactly the same spec as the pulley's bolt.
So it got a little weird.
What I wound up doing was sticking a socket into the hole the bolt threads into, and that did the trick.
Is this sort of wear on the camshaft normal? It looks like this on every single lobe.
Another question, is this kind of corrosion a big deal, or should I be alright?
and how do I get this baked on crap off my case?
That's all for today
_________________
57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wurd
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2014
Posts: 37
Location: France
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Hi,
If you machine cut your case, I have a set of bearings available.
Main bearings from Sintermetal : 0.20 case, 0.10 crank, 1st cut thrust (23mm).
I also have a set of NOS Glyco rod bearings 0.10 crank. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Case corrosion is not ideal, but should be fine for stock. Be good to smooth that out to keep water and dirt collecting there and corrosion from just eating away more. Just be careful not to light up that magnesium of the case...
Camshaft looks pretty bad. Might be able to have it reground. Would prefer a reground German camshaft over a new Brazilian. Make sure to figure out cam gear size and write that down. When you have the case rebored, that cam size might change a size up or down, but having that number will narrow down what you will need.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KingOfAces
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014
Posts: 140
Location: West Virginia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Don't put stuff on the top of your car.
Unfortunately, I would like to say that all the hardware made it to my house all in one piece. What is fortunate, is that the only things I lost were the washers, nuts, and bolts that hold the case together. I was able to recover the rod thing that sits under the top of the intake manifold.
Are those replaceable with regular old fasteners? Or, aside from the wave washers, are they special?
Aside from that extremely stupid mistake, I removed the last of the bearings from the crankshaft, and removed the valve seats from the other cylinder head a few days ago.
| wurd wrote: |
Hi,
If you machine cut your case, I have a set of bearings available.
Main bearings from Sintermetal : 0.20 case, 0.10 crank, 1st cut thrust (23mm).
I also have a set of NOS Glyco rod bearings 0.10 crank. |
Hello, thank you. Let me spend a few sweet hours with some calipers and my crank first. I gotta figure out how bad that is.
Luckily my college lets students borrow their nice calipers to use for "class work".
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Camshaft looks pretty bad. Might be able to have it reground. Would prefer a reground German camshaft over a new Brazilian. Make sure to figure out cam gear size and write that down. When you have the case rebored, that cam size might change a size up or down, but having that number will narrow down what you will need. |
There's a VW Shop in town, still in business amazingly. Though, they moved to working on all cars. Anyway, I'm going to swing by there at one point and see if they'll be up to doing the machining that is needed. I'd rather reuse this camshaft, if possible.
Possibly silly question though, how will getting the case rebored affect the camshaft? Only the crank seats(?) change, right? Won't the crankshaft sit in the same place as before?
Anyway, have a handful of pictures.
_________________
57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
| KingOfAces wrote: |
Possibly silly question though, how will getting the case rebored affect the camshaft? Only the crank seats(?) change, right? Won't the crankshaft sit in the same place as before?
|
In a perfect world reboring the case should not affect that. Problem is it is not a perfect world. Like a box put on top of a car should just stay there when driving...  BTDT.
Even at the factory keeping the camshaft and crankshaft bores exactly same dimension apart was a problem. Thus the reason there are at least 7 plus camshaft sizes and 7 minus sizes, plus the nominal size.
A little bit of:
1. Debris in the bores of the case where the tool seats to do its work.
2. Wear in the tool bearings itself.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KingOfAces
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014
Posts: 140
Location: West Virginia
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Hello
A very small update. I found a relatively local shop that can perform a line bore and turn the crankshaft. I asked for him to look it over and see if we can get away with 20 on the case and 10 on the crank. WolfburgsWest has that size bearing in stock.
Unfortunately, because I have to work and the shop is three hours away, I had to leave the crank, the case, and the case hardware at the shop.
| wurd wrote: |
Hi,
If you machine cut your case, I have a set of bearings available.
Main bearings from Sintermetal : 0.20 case, 0.10 crank, 1st cut thrust (23mm).
I also have a set of NOS Glyco rod bearings 0.10 crank. |
Unfortunately, this shop isn't setup to do Thrust Cuts. What's worse, is that this is literally the only shop that I could find around me that can do an align bore on a 36 hp engine. It's possible that I may have missed a shop here and there, but everyone I found is either not setup for it, retired, closed up shop long ago, or have sadly passed away. I don't want to risk shipping it to RIMCO. Years of building computers and having computer cases smashed in shipping has turned me off from that.
Thank you though.
I plan on buying a ton of parts and getting the heads and cylinders blasted and prepped for reassembly, but I want to get the case and crank squared away first.
_________________
57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KingOfAces
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014
Posts: 140
Location: West Virginia
|
| Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Man, does it feel good to be back here.
I got the case aligne bored, the crank turned, and bought a new camshaft from the guy that remachined the hardware. Case was bored to 20, and the crank was turned to 10/10. I couldn't find any shop that were willing to regrind the camshaft, and never got a response from the people that were likely to. If I ever get my own garage, I'll turn the original camshaft into wall art.
Tomorrow, a shipment of parts from WolfsburgWest is supposed to arrive with the proper size bearings, among other things. I lucked out and found a bottle of Permatex 3H at the local Orilley's. I could not find a local retailer, or even someone willing to ship Curil K2 in the US.
I still need to get the heads and cylinders blasted, but I ordered a set of new valves and springs. I've heard that these engines are notorious for eating valves, so I'd rather not risk it with the original ones. Some of them are really crusty anyway.
Before all the pics, a quick question. If I sand the rust off the studs in the case, what should I repaint them with?
I found a socket at Harbor Freight of all places that fit the Oil Relief Valve plug perfectly. What's better, it came in a set of six other comically oversized fasteners, and was only ~$11, which is cheaper than any drag link sockets I found anywhere
Soaked in oil and ready to go.
Tomorrow, before the parts arrive, I'm going to take the case to the local car wash (again), clean it out, give it one last mineral spirit wash, and put it back together.
Here is a couple of pics of the big problem lobe. I don't know how I didn't catch it in my first inspection.
Tomorrow, hopefully, I'll have a big update.
_________________
57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Just paint the old studs with used grease.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KingOfAces
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014
Posts: 140
Location: West Virginia
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Okay, I don't know how else to say this, but I am a moron. Apparently even though I asked the guy if he turned the crankshaft and he said "yes", that maybe 'turn' means something else, because it wasn't turned. A friend and I waited until 4PM for FedEx to deliver the engine parts, immediately took out the bearings, fit them on, and... they didn't fit.
I'm counting this one up to a failure to communicate.
Good news is, is that I have the bearings I need and that a handful more shops are willing to turn the crankshaft, compared to align boring the engine. The alignbore is spot on, the new bearings fit in the case perfectly.
Bad news, is that we may be waiting for a bit so I can drag it to a nearby shop and have it shaved down. The crank is slathered in oil in the meantime.
That said, today was not a total loss. My friend owns a 68' Ford Custom. Absolutely gorgeous car. He was nice enough to help me out with some electrical stuff, as I know very little of electrical anything. We found out the horn that is on it is not original and does not work, the speedometer light works, and that the wiring is a huge mess. I didn't take any pics of it, but the fuses that were in there were a mishmash of red, white, blue, and a single glass fuse of some sort. After some digging around here we found that originally all the fuses were 8 amps (white), so we went ahead and replaced them all. Granddad had a small box of new ones, along with a set of red ones, in the glovebox.
The wiring to the horn is good, the wiring to the headlight and possibly the second fusebox is not, and that's were we stopped a little bit ago.
Lastly, since I am going to have to repaint the cylinders anyway, I grabbed a can of black engine paint from Advance, sanded, and painted the cylinder studs. I left the inside ones alone as they didn't show any rust.
My friend wanted me to post this picture of him messing with the horn wiring.
Anyone know if one of those really old 'Awooga' horns can fit in a Beetle?
_________________
57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
| KingOfAces wrote: |
Anyone know if one of those really old 'Awooga' horns can fit in a Beetle? |
Too bad about the crank. At least that and the camshaft are pretty easy to ship. Any two terminal horn will work as long as it is not too huge in that area.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KingOfAces
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014
Posts: 140
Location: West Virginia
|
| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
I sent the crank out a few days ago. Hopefully it'll come back next week.
I tried my hand at cleaning the cylinders and removing the rest of the studs from the heads so I can get them ready for blasting. There's only two studs left, and they're not coming out without a heck of a fight. Should I just give up on them and helicoil the holes that are left behind?
Beyond that, my friend wanted me to check the brake system to see if it was reusable. I took the plug off the master cylinder and it is bone dry inside. That's okay though, I wanted to replace it with a dual master cylinder anyway.
Losing all your brakes at 55 mph does not sound fun.
I also went to see if the starter works and... nothing. Nope.
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Too bad about the crank. At least that and the camshaft are pretty easy to ship. Any two terminal horn will work as long as it is not too huge in that area. |
I don't think there's enough room for one of those old style horns anyway. An old one from a Model A or T is ~$300 anyway.
Needs just a little more work, but it's cleaninng up alright
Toasted Master Cylinder
Question; is there a way to get rid of this crap on the rim of the cylinder?
Broken studs
Hopefully I can have a real update next week.
_________________
57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
If the stud in the head is not broken, then leave it. It should be taped over to protect the threads from the abrasive.
You can get modern made klaxon horn for less than $40.00 thru Amazon.com, even in 6 volt. If it has only one terminal you can use a relay.
If it is just carbon on the cylinder head side sealing surfaces, a razor blade should do it.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cn63bug
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Mt. Juliet, TN
|
| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
| KingOfAces wrote: |
I could not find a local retailer, or even someone willing to ship Curil K2 in the US.
|
Future reference, This is where I got my Curil K2 from. Had it in under a week.
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Products/559526004-MFG30...oCnHbw_wcB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bug-nut
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2015
Posts: 488
Location: Knoxville, TN
|
| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
You can get those broken studs out without too much trouble. If I were you I would (carefully) grind the stud off level, take a center punch and dimple the center as closely as possible, and the drill it out enough to where you can use an easy-out and remove the stud (once again, very carefully) I'd at least try this before drilling the studs out oversize and using a helicoil. I can't recall off-hand what size easy-out to use, I'm at work right now and don't have access to my tools to check and see.
_________________
1959 Fjord Blue Volkswagen Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight=
1962 Austin-Healey Sprite
| Snort wrote: |
| A 59 Beetle is just an Oval-Window car with aspirations of modernity. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
|
|
Bad idea. If stud broke off due to being stuck in the head, the smaller easy out is just going to break off that much easier.
Better to either weld to the stud and use the heat of welding break up the corrosion in there or drill out the stud. If one takes their time drilling it out there is not need to go over sized.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
