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luvtheeluvbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2013
Posts: 288
Location: Sonora, Ca
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 Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: Head Gasket Replacement |
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I'm doing a partial rebuild on my engine to fix a couple oil leaks. I discovered that the majority of the leak is the oil cooler which has sprayed oil everywhere. I just disassembled everything on top of the engine today (fan shroud, generator, manifold, etc.). I'm not sure if I'll put new seals on the push rod tubes yet but, if I do, I would like to know; do I need new head gaskets once I take them off?
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Fahrvergnugen/ far-fair-gnu-ghen/ Description of a pleasurable sensation experienced when a car and it's driver are in mutual harmony; A unique driving experience; Pleasure; Satisfaction; A feeling experienced by Volkswagen drivers. |
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andrewvwclassic
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2012
Posts: 920
Location: los angeles
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| I dont quite understand what you are saying. take the gaskets off or the valve covers. The heads themselves dont use gaskets they sit agains the jugs naked. there are 3 gakets in that region the valve cover gasket the cylinder gaskets which are on the case side and the ones which you already mentioned on the pushrod tubes. if you come into contact with anything made of paper I would change them. make sure you keep the mating surfaces clean and rub gear oil on them before you assemble. I would buy a hwhole engine gasket set and replace the ones in the cooler too they can get a little stiff from heat which causes leaks over time. They will also give you new valve cover gaskets in the kit if you think those need to be replaced as well. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Head gasket=blinker fluid=muffler bearing
(there is no gasket between head and cylinder) |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31385
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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| luvtheeluvbug wrote: |
| I'm not sure if I'll put new seals on the push rod tubes yet but, if I do, I would like to know; do I need new head gaskets once I take them off? |
As posted above, no head gaskets on these.
But if you do pull the heads off, keep the cylinders from coming apart from the engine block, or you'll need to re-seal those there. Some may have thin paper gaskets there, some were re-built using RTV, Permatex, or Gascacinch.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Teafortwo
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2013
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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In the past I am confident I've read somewhere that it is not a bad idea to 'lap or grind' the heads to the barrel using fine paste on the top mate surface of the barrel to the head and course paste on the other mate surface of barrel to head.
This will make a close airtight fit.
No guarantee! |
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luvtheeluvbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2013
Posts: 288
Location: Sonora, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Alright. I just read the manual and it said that only pre '63 engines use head gaskets.
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Fahrvergnugen/ far-fair-gnu-ghen/ Description of a pleasurable sensation experienced when a car and it's driver are in mutual harmony; A unique driving experience; Pleasure; Satisfaction; A feeling experienced by Volkswagen drivers. |
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Bashr52
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006
Posts: 5666
Location: On an island in VA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| luvtheeluvbug wrote: |
| Alright. I just read the manual and it said that only pre '63 engines use head gaskets. |
None of these engines used head gaskets. Some early engines had a thin paper gasket that was run at the base of the barrels, but those are never re-installed on rebuilds. |
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BugMan114
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Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: Ellenwood, GA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Yep, no head gaskets. They do sell spacers that sorta act like head gaskets, but they're mostly for changing C/R. But they're not for stock engines.
Now the bottom of all cylinders did use paper gaskets between the case and cylinders to prevent oil from leaking. I like to use them on stock cylinders. They don't work well on larger cylinders because when you bore out the case for them, the already thin sealing area the gasket sits on, gets even thinner causing the paper gaskets to squish out. So i just use some silicone or something on larger cylinder engines.
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Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
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jwold
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 2088
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Check to see that the bolts/nuts that hold your crankcase halves together are properly torqued. |
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HRVW
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011
Posts: 2531
Location: Rosarito, Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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 Buy a gskt set for a 1600 engine that will have the push tube seals inside.....as for the rest of the items keep the set for a whatever comes up.
8 spring loaded push tubes is the way to go. Pull the rocker arms...remove push rods...pry out the old tubes...clean the 8 holes with ACETONE and wipe dry. You will need 8 extra seals for the middle of the push tubes against the flat washer to the spring....helps to avoid any leak there.
(VW mechanic) |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2106
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Bashr52 wrote: |
| luvtheeluvbug wrote: |
| Alright. I just read the manual and it said that only pre '63 engines use head gaskets. |
None of these engines used head gaskets. Some early engines had a thin paper gasket that was run at the base of the barrels, but those are never re-installed on rebuilds. |
stale-air cars (i.e. before Dec 62) did have copper seals around the tops of the cylinders on the heads to avoid the possibility of combustion gasses leaking into the heater
of course that's a matter not to be discussed in the 68-up forum  |
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sun-bug74
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 254
Location: Gloucester, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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Hi Folks:
I realize this thread was a while back but it is very helpful. I have the heads off to replace the push rod tubes and seals, which are all junk. Three of the four cylinders stayed flush with the block at removal but one slid forward a bit. What would the harm be if I took off all four cylinders by sliding out over the pistons and letting pistons just sit there? I would replace all four seals against the block and it would seem to me that this would be the time to just purchase new, stock diameter rings for the pistons. Or, is sliding the cylinders off creating an issue with getting them back on, especially with new rings? Maybe not, but, never having done this, I don't want to create new problems.
If this is all advised, can someone send me a link to the cylinder/block seals and piston rings that are preferred. My motor is stock, 1600cc. It seems that I will need to at least re-seal the one cylinder that slid.
Thanks!
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31385
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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| sun-bug74 wrote: |
I realize this thread was a while back but it is very helpful. I have the heads off to replace the push rod tubes and seals, which are all junk. Three of the four cylinders stayed flush with the block at removal but one slid forward a bit. What would the harm be if I took off all four cylinders by sliding out over the pistons and letting pistons just sit there? I would replace all four seals against the block and it would seem to me that this would be the time to just purchase new, stock diameter rings for the pistons. Or, is sliding the cylinders off creating an issue with getting them back on, especially with new rings? Maybe not, but, never having done this, I don't want to create new problems.
If this is all advised, can someone send me a link to the cylinder/block seals and piston rings that are preferred. My motor is stock, 1600cc. It seems that I will need to at least re-seal the one cylinder that slid. |
There are generally no seals at either end of the cylinders; sometimes there is a gasket at the interface of cylinders and case, but most use only a sealant there. And no seals or sealant between the cylinders and the heads.
Yes, you can pull the cylinders off to seal, and then reinstall them, just line the gaps correctly as per the manual. Or you can use brand-new rings, but for that folks usually hone the cylinders a tad. There won't be an install issue with brand-new rings. Be sure to have a ring compressor that comes apart to do this job however !!
I think somewhere in my resurrection thread I mentioned or showed what I used under the cylinders in my latest engine build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=664950&highlight=resurrection
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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sun-bug74
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 254
Location: Gloucester, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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Thanks. My mechanic has a tad and he will hone out the jugs for me. I see that you have referenced JB Weld Steel Stick if I don't see old gaskets (or even if I do but cannot find new ones).
Do you recommend a certain brand of rings? No need to skimp. Do you know the proper size and type of ring tool to use? I am willing to buy one but I just want to get the right one.
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sun-bug74
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 254
Location: Gloucester, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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Also, what is the correct size ring for a stock 1600?
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67rustavenger 
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9772
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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| sun-bug74 wrote: |
Thanks. My mechanic has a tad and he will hone out the jugs for me. I see that you have referenced JB Weld Steel Stick if I don't see old gaskets (or even if I do but cannot find new ones).
Do you recommend a certain brand of rings? No need to skimp. Do you know the proper size and type of ring tool to use? I am willing to buy one but I just want to get the right one. |
Deves, Grant,.... Look in the classifieds here and locate a stock set rings.
You have to measure your pistons before ordering rings. After all these years, the engine has been rebuilt a few times and likely had parts swapped.
Seal the cylinders to the case with a light coat of RTV, pick your favorite color.
For a ring compressor. You can rent one from an auto parts store.
I use a metal shipping crate banding strap, cut to fit the piston diameter.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
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sun-bug74
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 254
Location: Gloucester, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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Thanks. Is it possible to just use piston ring pliers to take the old ones off and then to put the new ones on? Can you explain more about the compressor and why that is necessary. All new to me. Maybe a pic?
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76949
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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You need a ring compressor to get the pistons back into the cylinders.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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sun-bug74
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 254
Location: Gloucester, MA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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Ah, got it. Thanks.
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OTTO 1303
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2020
Posts: 637
Location: Louisiana
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Head Gasket Replacement |
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Rings for original VW piston/cylinders:
GRANT 311-198-169A (98-1169-B)
This set is 2x2x5, so measure your ring groove height to verify.
If you have a glaze or crosshatch is gone, a honing may be in order.
I recommend a 3 stone hone for used cylinders.
Remove carbon buildup on EVERYTHING!!!
While you have apart, inspect the mating surface of the cylinder to head.
If it is clean with no etching and the original machining is good shape, you may be good to go.
If there is evidence of etching or carbon blow by or buildup on the mating surfaces, you may want to research lapping the cylinders to the head to improve seal.
+1 on the additional advice stated above.
Good luck
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