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nacradriver
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 760
Location: Ventura, CA
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 Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: Upgrading from R12 to R-134 or even HFO-1234yf |
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Has anyone here upgraded the AC system to accept the R-134 or even the new stuff HFO-1234yf?
What was your process… parts involved etc...?
Thanks
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Güdrun -1989 Westfalia - 2013 - 2018
Petra - 1985 Vanagon - 1985 to 1991
Zisa - 1974 VW Van "Bus" - 1974 to 1985 |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Check your calendar. Its broken windshield wiper season. AC season starts up late March.
Neil2 |
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nacradriver
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 760
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Fixed the wipers last August.... 
We need the AC here in Ventucky, CA in January
_________________
Güdrun -1989 Westfalia - 2013 - 2018
Petra - 1985 Vanagon - 1985 to 1991
Zisa - 1974 VW Van "Bus" - 1974 to 1985 |
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davevickery
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Find the red tek thread. Looks like a better way to go. All upside no downside for a diy solution. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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campism
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 4491
Location: Richmond VA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from R12 to R-134 or even HFO-1234yf |
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| nacradriver wrote: |
Has anyone here upgraded the AC system to accept the R-134 or even the new stuff HFO-1234yf?
What was your process… parts involved etc...?
Thanks |
If the system seems complete but just needs a charge you can try what I did; get one of those $40 R134a conversion sets from your local FLAPS. That and an hour will let you know if your system is basically sound. You can always tear it apart and do it right later with barrier hose, new receiver/dryer and expansion valve and Red Tek.
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'87 Westy in Wolfram Grey Metallic |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9798
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from R12 to R-134 or even HFO-1234yf |
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| nacradriver wrote: |
| Has anyone here upgraded the AC system to accept the R-134... |
Just my opinion, but I wouldn't regard that as an 'upgrade'. |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Using 134-A is like venturing back into the stone age.
Red-Tek is the refrigerant to be using.
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T.K. |
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vanagonjon
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2006
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Try to find some R12, it is what your car is designed for. The whole ozone hole issue was a scam anyway. No, it was a lie, not a scam.
John |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Why run the 12, when there is a product out there in AC land, that will perform as well as the 12, & is a quarter of the price.
Your haven't done your homework at all here on your AC possibilites Johnny--
Flunked out in facts & figures, or possibly haven't read the library of posts posted here on the possibilities & sucesses of using R-12A.
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17114
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from R12 to R-134 or even HFO-1234yf |
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| nacradriver wrote: |
Has anyone here upgraded the AC system to accept the R-134 or even the new stuff HFO-1234yf?
What was your process… parts involved etc...?
Thanks |
Are you thinking of doing this yourself or having a shop do it? Does the system have an charge left in it? If you are subbing it out, you may have to follow the shops recommendations. To do it yourself, you'll need a manifold set and a vacuum pump. Regardless of refrigerant, you'll want to fix all the leaks prior to filling it if possible. While redtek may be safe to blow off to the atmosphere, I imagine a few of those and it starts to add up. Most AC shops that work with R12 or 134 would have recovery equipment. Not sure how many shops can recover redtek or would want to mix it with their recovered refrigerant. If the system is empty, you can pull a vacuum on it and then close the gauges. It should hold vacuum overnight if the system is sealed. AC rocks.
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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AC work actually is pretty simple in theory & operation.
It's when folks start adding their own idea's and deviate from the pretty concrete path of the systems operation that it gets crazy.
If you don't know what or how to perform the downgrade, update, whatever your planning on doing, plus don't have the proper equipment to get the job done--now your in all kinds of trouble.
Buy a AC Training manual first--do some reading, grasp the thought of how each component is supposed to work--then have at it.
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nacradriver
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 760
Location: Ventura, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from R12 to R-134 or even HFO-1234yf |
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| djkeev wrote: |
X2 on RedTek
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=292488
Get a BIG cup of coffee, settle in with a notepad and start reading...... 43 pages....... Wade through the crap........ In the end..... Redtek is THE way to go!
Along with flushing the system, new seals, maybe new hoses, etc.
I did a "Cliffs Notes" near the end........
Dave |
Wow!!! thanks for the abstract at the end
| campism wrote: |
If the system seems complete but just needs a charge you can try what I did; get one of those $40 R134a conversion sets from your local FLAPS. That and an hour will let you know if your system is basically sound. You can always tear it apart and do it right later with barrier hose, new receiver/dryer and expansion valve and Red Tek. |
I am looking to do this when I do the engine swap and at that time do it right...
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Güdrun -1989 Westfalia - 2013 - 2018
Petra - 1985 Vanagon - 1985 to 1991
Zisa - 1974 VW Van "Bus" - 1974 to 1985 |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Might as well load up on the 134A while it's still available.
By the time you get the conversion done, and the AC system, it too will be a refrigerant of the past, and it'll be real cheap to obtain.
The warehouses are getting rid of it as fast as they can.
It was garbage when it first was shoved down folks throats, it'll be junk when you install it, and be plenty inexpensive by the time your ready.
This stuff underperformed, and was obsolete the day it was introduced to replace the R-12.
Great idea, good downgrade for your AC system.
There is much better freon available than the 134 alternative.
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T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thummmper
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009
Posts: 2015
Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:26 am Post subject: |
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I just did this last summer--I never had the system working before so when the aft fans came on it blew me away-- 1998 and 1990 tin tops with the airline style ceiling units.
the vanagon ac system is specific only to itsself- vw has no other vehicle designed with this system[nor does anyone else] It was an experiment that they decided to retain.
the most vulnerable part of the vanagon system is the condenser up front- stacked in front of the radiator--it is large passaged, designed for r12, but it will work fine for 134--this entire system must be purged of r12 before you can even vacuum test it--take every connection apart and replace the oring with the 134 green O-rings--I got a kit from van café or bus depot-- you will need to replace the following parts right off--the dryer [black canister in the left rear wheel well]
the hi-low pressure switch [ located in the left rear d pillar attached to the 6" metal ac hose section--] these offer mysterious leaks that 64.00 will eliminate before you burn 180.00 in recharges.
possibly all of your ac hoses--this cost me 300.00 for each of two vans I did.-my factory mechanic says the inner lining comes loose and flaps over the passage, blocking the hose, usually at the pressure fitting at the condenser up front.
get a shop to charge it for you after you have replaced all the O-rings and separated and cleaned/greased the electrical connections, including the fuses[which need continuity testing--visual inspection isn't enough]
the O-rings must be replaced because the 134 molecules are much smaller than the 12's and float right through the old seals and even through steel taper hydraulic fittings.
the evaporator in the rear must be dropped down and serviced--there is 1/4" foam wrapped around the evaporator to slow the air funneling through it so it will cool--replace this if you can and clean the drip gutters-the hoses will need probing to know they will drain properly, otherwise you will have water dripping from above in the back.
if you will notice, this system is always on recirculation mode--the return air register [grate] draws from the rear interior window area. the aluminum plumbing block within has 4 o-rings in it that need replacing. don't forget them. these things can be done at home for huge savings.
the dryer must be replaced each time you recharge--it is full of anti-dessicant and gets saturated/useless. and the vacuum process evacuates air and any moisture from the system. moisture will freeze and clog the passages, as well as corrode the pump.
the clutch on the pump will not activate until it senses a minimum of oil and refrigerant during the charging process--after the vacuum test proves you have no leaks, in a totally new or clean system you inject 4 oz of 134 oil. then 3 cans of 12 oz r134. while you are waiting you can lay the cans on the engine to heat them up. they will shoot in the system fast this way and it will begin immediately to blow cold.
I hope this was helpful |
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pdm777
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012
Posts: 348
Location: Clovis, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Redtek BAHHHH!
Most alternatives to R12 are hydrocarbon (propane) based.
Propane is a very efficient refrigerant. and dirt cheap!
--google it--
I converted an old Volvo from R12 ($$$$) to propane
and it was blowing ICE COLD, much colder than 134.
All for about $5. (thanks to geezer mechanic for the tip)
Nancy-ing about fire danger ?
The 'freon' alternatives are all flammable (try it at home)
Alas, we have propane refrig and stove in our campers,
and you're sitting over a large tank of gasoline.
Seriously, buy a vacuum pump and set of gauges from Harbor Freight,
money well spent. It is a bit of voodoo to get the optimum
amount of refrigerant in the system (varies by outside temp and humidiity).
Plenty of knowledge on the interweb.
Go to AC sites and follow professional practices and you will have pro results.
Flush lines, pull a vacuum + new dryer= success.
My westy is running 134 and cools -real good- |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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And at higher compressor head and at overall operating pressusures.
Sure hope you ripped out all of your antique hoses & plumbing & updated to run that low performance 134 seeing as it gets you cool at a price---
leaking hoses & fittings.
That 84 was designed to run on R-12, and in one quick cheap way to get the job done your running the Walmart freon.
Genius--Brilliant.
I'll run the R-12A and be at what pressures the system was designed to function at, if not lower with no penalties.
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T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9798
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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there seems to be an impression that r12 is either unavailable or ruinously expensive.
it can be had, nos or recycled. from reputable sources and a charge costs about the same as couple tanks of gas.
of course you want the system in good nick with no leaks -- but that is true no matter what you use.
the advantage, in addition to performance, is that most competent shops will work with it -- often not so for redtek.
otoh, redtek for the diy'er seems to be the ideal choice these days. |
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mackaymanx
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 479
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| pdm777 wrote: |
Redtek BAHHHH!
Nancy-ing about fire danger ?
The 'freon' alternatives are all flammable (try it at home)
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I strongly recommend you do not burn refrigerants, the gases produced can be highly toxic ( as you say Google it)
PS I think you are very stupid to suggest it. |
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