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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: Okrasa VS Express kit? |
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Hello all, I did try to search this but wasn't having any luck finding what I was after.
Just wondering what the best dual carb 36hp kit would be in regards to hp and torque numbers between the Okrasa dp heads kit and the express manifolds kit?
I thought all the HP was in the heads, as the big block guys say. Yet the express kit with it's dual 28's on stock heads seems to put out almost identical hp numbers to the Okrasa kit with it's dual ported heads and 32's. Am I missing something?
Just wondering what the best route is for easy hp?
Cheers! _________________ .
My 1956 RHD Aussie Beetle ll (o\!/o) ll
Sydney, Australia |
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oldturtle22 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012 Posts: 14 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:32 am Post subject: |
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I would be interested in this as well as Im going down the same path!! |
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Bret2094 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012 Posts: 665 Location: Linden, Texas or College Station Texas
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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:16 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, some technical insight would be good, because I am torn between the 2. The solid cast manifolds and throttle linkage also looks alot better that the welded Okrasa manifolds, not that looks are everything, but if I wanted only performance, I'd cram a 1776 or something the my bug instead
@ Bret; I'm not sure that is is exactly the same as the original express kits, but from what I am told it is now a Motorentechnik Riechert kit?? Please correct me if I am wrong! From what I understand, it works the same as the express kits on the original singleport heads with dual 28's, except the throttle linkage is a little different from what I can tell.
here is the link:
http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/
I hope you can read German haha! Because the way the website works, I cant send the specific link to the actual page, you have to navigate to it. _________________ .
My 1956 RHD Aussie Beetle ll (o\!/o) ll
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Robert Chambers Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2005 Posts: 216
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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56 VDUB wrote: |
Yeah, some technical insight would be good, because I am torn between the 2. The solid cast manifolds and throttle linkage also looks alot better that the welded Okrasa manifolds, not that looks are everything, but if I wanted only performance, I'd cram a 1776 or something the my bug instead
@ Bret; I'm not sure that is is exactly the same as the original express kits, but from what I am told it is now a Motorentechnik Riechert kit?? Please correct me if I am wrong! From what I understand, it works the same as the express kits on the original singleport heads with dual 28's, except the throttle linkage is a little different from what I can tell.
here is the link:
http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/
I hope you can read German haha! Because the way the website works, I cant send the specific link to the actual page, you have to navigate to it. |
Go to the web site. Click on the British flag upper left home page. The site will change to read in English. _________________ '63 OG 117 Herbie Replica
'56 Euro Oval Deluxe
'52 Standard Zwitter
'63 OG 117 |
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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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I can see that, but the english site is abridged and doesn't have all the information the German one does, it even looks completely different...
This is all the english site offers regarding the same kit; http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/en/solex28.htm
In other words....nothing _________________ .
My 1956 RHD Aussie Beetle ll (o\!/o) ll
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Robert Chambers Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2005 Posts: 216
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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There is an email link. I would try that to find if any information on availability and pricing can be found! _________________ '63 OG 117 Herbie Replica
'56 Euro Oval Deluxe
'52 Standard Zwitter
'63 OG 117 |
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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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There is a pricing chart in the German site. The parts can all be bought separately on the most part, depending on what you already have to work with, but manifolds are €130, the linkage is another €144, the carbs are price on appointment, so I imagine it isn't the cheapest kit out there. But if you already have a 28pci on your car now, you only need to find 1 other to make a pair. And small odds and ends like balance tubes can all be bought, or even made, depending on your inclination or account balance.
I would be interested to hear some real world experiences with the kit vs the Okrasa like low end torque, hp etc?? I'm thinking the vintagespeed section was not the right section to be posting in due to low traffic, I didn't even know it existed untill a few weeks ago maybe if I posted in the oval section I would get more insight??
==========
EDIT: I thought I'd give directions to the offending page!
go to; http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/
1. click Vergaser/Anlagen/Zubehor
2. select in the drop down menu and click on; Riechert-Doppel-vergaseranlagen
3. click on; 2-vergaser-Anlage (Solex typ1) and then the last link for 1200/34ps
Pricing list is on that page, top left under Stückliste _________________ .
My 1956 RHD Aussie Beetle ll (o\!/o) ll
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mahan Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2012 Posts: 60
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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link, unfortunately there is still no dyno information to compare. I found this which gives a little insight, but not quite enough...
36hplandspeedracer wrote: |
Ronnie, looks like you did good and the mild cam helped. Here are some HP and Torque comparisons from other 36ers over the years.
Burly
04/10 36hp HORSEPOWER RATINGS
from Burly Burlile
25hp…1131cc(64 x 75) Stock VW to 1953 rated at 25hp
36hp…1192cc(64 x 77) Stock VW stock engine(30hp Euro)24hp to rear wheels / Comp:6.6-1 Torque:60 @ 2400 rpms
56 @ 2000 rpms
41hp…1192cc(64 x 77) Deitz dual carb(28pci) S/P stock engine
Comp:6.6-1
45hp…1192cc(64 x 77) Express dual carb S/P stock engine
Comp:6.6-1
48hp…1192cc(64 x 77) Okrasa dual carb(32pbi) D/P stock cam, D/P Comp:7.5-1 Torque:75.0 @ 2200 rpms
53hp…1192cc(64 x 77) WW dual carb(32---) D/P Web cam, D/P Heads
Comp:_____ Torque:74.5@ 3000rpms
51hp…1192cc(64 x 77) Judson supercharged(28pci) Web cam, S/P Heads Comp:______ Torque:82.9@2500rpms
57hp…1192cc(64 x 77) Judson supercharged(28pci) stock engine
42hp to rear wheelsComp:6.6-1 Torque:64.0 @ 2400 rpms
?hp…1192cc(64 x 77) Bruch turbocharged(H-D Kehin)stock cam, S/P heads Comp:6.6-1
54hp…1192cc(67 x 7 Denzel dual carb(32pb) D/P stock cam, D/P heads Comp:7.4-1 Torque:66.7
64hp…1281cc(67 x 7 Denzel dual carb(32pb) D/P stock cam, D/P heads
Comp:8.2-1 big bore P&C’s, D/P heads
Torque:83.0 @ 2700 rpms
71hp…1281cc(67 x 7 Denzel dual carb(32pb) D/P Super Cam, D/P heads
Comp:8.2-1 big bore P&C’s, D/P heads
51hp…1285cc(69 x77) Okrasa dual carb(32pb) D/P stock cam, D/P heads
40hp to rear wheels/Comp:8.5-1 stroker crank,Torque:68.0 @ 3000 rpms
60hp…1285cc(69 x 77) Okrasa dual carb(32pb) D/P Isky 2j cam, D/P heads
Comp:8.5-1 stroker crank
65hp…1285cc(69 x 77) Okrasa dual carb(32pb) D/P Super Cam, D/P heads
Comp:8.5-1 stroker crank
63hp…1378cc(74 x 77) Bruchrasa dual carb(28pci) S/P,Turbo Cam,S/P heads
Comp:9.5-1 Porsche 356 crank
? hp…1415cc(76 x 77) Bruch single carb(28pci) S/P Erson 410 Cam,S/P heads
Comp:9.11-1,Porsche 356 crank
67.5hp.1433cc( x ) Oval 56 dual carb(Reichert 34pci)
50hp rear wheels(126nm torque)
75hp…1500cc(76.6x79) Okrasa dual carb(Weber 40)S/P,Super Cam, D/P heads
Comp:8.5-1 stroker crank, big bore P&C’s
98hp…1500cc( x ) Denzel dual carb(40) D/P Wild Cam, D/P heads
Comp:9.5-1 stroker crank, big bore P&C’s
80hp…1620cc ( x ) Okrasa dual carb(32) D/P D/P heads
Bengt Holmen stroker crank,big bore P&C’s
63.3hp.1621cc ( x ) Okrasa dual carb( Kadron) D/P D/P heads
rear wheels Julio Iniques Torque 76.32 flyhweel
¼ mile 69.45 mph 18.83 seconds
? ( x ) Pepco ? More info requested!
59.8hp at rear wheels(93nm Torque)
HEAD FLOW(cfm)
Okrasa Head Flow 54.1 cfm
Stock Head Flow 37.2 cfm
Bruchrasa Head Flow 56.2 cfm
Denzel Head Flow _?_ cfm
COMPRESSION RATIOS
Okrasa Head only 7.5-1
Okrasa Crank only 7.5-1
Okrasa combined 8.5-1 Heads with Crank |
I'm guessing that this is a somewhat of an untested kit, or nobody that has either one or both of these kits has chimed in yet...
I'm just wondering why the okrasa heads and 32's from the above numbers only produced 3 more hp over the express with sp heads and 28's? Kinda seems like an anticlimax when I hear people saying that a changeover from a 28 to a 16 blade fan can produce that much of a hp gain by itself! _________________ .
My 1956 RHD Aussie Beetle ll (o\!/o) ll
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Stocknazi Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 5146
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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Can someone who can read german post the price for a pair of the Express manifolds in the above link? _________________ WANTED:
58 Westfalia cabinet knobs (3 needed), roof rack, and (7) privy tent poles (silver painted).
"When the people are afraid of the government, that's tyranny. But when the government is afraid of the people, that's liberty."
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Jefferson |
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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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StockNazi wrote: |
Can someone who can read german post the price for a pair of the Express manifolds in the above link? |
Sure, the 25 and 36hp motors need the "A" type manifolds, which are 65,24€ a piece, so 130€ or there about for the pair. I'd go with their special linkage too because it kinda makes the kit look completely different from any other kits, that's 129,00€ as far as I can tell for the whole linkage kit (crossbar, center support, nuts and washers etc). You would have to factor in postage also, and also factor in the need for 2 carbs aswell, but if you have those lying around, it's no biggie _________________ .
My 1956 RHD Aussie Beetle ll (o\!/o) ll
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ngobet Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2007 Posts: 96 Location: Switzerland / California
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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Those are Riechert, not Express, which are not reproduced. |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2344 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Another thought on intake manifolds for dual carb engines. Craig Richter, author of the critically acclaimed book " How to Make an Old Porsche Fly", gives some info on intake manifold design for these cars. His premise is that straighter manifolds, opposed to "S" curved ones will give more HP at the top end, at least for 356. He is a former multiple world record holder for 356 powered cars, and took a first place trophy at the very first Pomona Winternational drag race, so I tend to listen to him. He tried the "S" shaped offerings for 356 when fitting Weber carb, and found a significant reaction in HP with them. He then cut up a few stock manifolds and welded them back together making them taller and adding flat sides to the upper outer runners. He said it made all the difference in the world. You may ask " what does this have to do with 36hp engines?" Good question. You see, as air velocity increases, it begins to act more like a solid. You may have noticed that when you turn on the water on a long garden hose, it moves, trying to make itself more straight. Air wants to do the same thing. Of course, he was revving his poor engine to nearly 7k rpm, but the principle remains the same. This is where the Okrasa manifolds, and other straigher styles, may have an advantage over some others as they are quite straight from the carb to the intake ports. A bit of careful porting can straighten the air flow even more. As a side note, unshouding of the intake valve in the head, could be be counter productive, moving fuel rich air away from the center of the chamber, and too much swirl. All that being said, I built several dual carb engines back in the late 60/70s, splicing cut stock manifolds together, with significant "S" shape _________________ Jack Staggs
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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:14 am Post subject: |
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ngobet wrote: |
Those are Riechert, not Express, which are not reproduced. |
If you read the 3rd post, I already stated that it was not the express kit, but would produce roughly the same amount of hp regardless. Also, there is in fact an express kit reproduction now, but the prices make the og kits seem fairly affordable.
Jacks wrote: |
Another thought on intake manifolds for dual carb engines. Craig Richter, author of the critically acclaimed book " How to Make an Old Porsche Fly", gives some info on intake manifold design for these cars. His premise is that straighter manifolds, opposed to "S" curved ones will give more HP at the top end, at least for 356. He is a former multiple world record holder for 356 powered cars, and took a first place trophy at the very first Pomona Winternational drag race, so I tend to listen to him. He tried the "S" shaped offerings for 356 when fitting Weber carb, and found a significant reaction in HP with them. He then cut up a few stock manifolds and welded them back together making them taller and adding flat sides to the upper outer runners. He said it made all the difference in the world. You may ask " what does this have to do with 36hp engines?" Good question. You see, as air velocity increases, it begins to act more like a solid. You may have noticed that when you turn on the water on a long garden hose, it moves, trying to make itself more straight. Air wants to do the same thing. Of course, he was revving his poor engine to nearly 7k rpm, but the principle remains the same. This is where the Okrasa manifolds, and other straigher styles, may have an advantage over some others as they are quite straight from the carb to the intake ports. A bit of careful porting can straighten the air flow even more. As a side note, unshouding of the intake valve in the head, could be be counter productive, moving fuel rich air away from the center of the chamber, and too much swirl. All that being said, I built several dual carb engines back in the late 60/70s, splicing cut stock manifolds together, with significant "S" shape |
Wow, killer info Jack! Do you suppose with that theory then, that the s shape would produce the power at the opposite end of the powerband, increasing the low end torque? _________________ .
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2344 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: |
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No. _________________ Jack Staggs
Actual name |
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Stocknazi Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 5146
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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56 VDUB wrote: |
ngobet wrote: |
Those are Riechert, not Express, which are not reproduced. |
If you read the 3rd post, I already stated that it was not the express kit, but would produce roughly the same amount of hp regardless. Also, there is in fact an express kit reproduction now, but the prices make the og kits seem fairly affordable.
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Anyone have any info on the Reproduction Express kits mentioned above?
I am interested in buying a set of reproduction manifolds if they exist. _________________ WANTED:
58 Westfalia cabinet knobs (3 needed), roof rack, and (7) privy tent poles (silver painted).
"When the people are afraid of the government, that's tyranny. But when the government is afraid of the people, that's liberty."
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Jefferson |
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56 VDUB Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2013 Posts: 121 Location: Sydney, Australia.
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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StockNazi wrote: |
56 VDUB wrote: |
ngobet wrote: |
Those are Riechert, not Express, which are not reproduced. |
If you read the 3rd post, I already stated that it was not the express kit, but would produce roughly the same amount of hp regardless. Also, there is in fact an express kit reproduction now, but the prices make the og kits seem fairly affordable.
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Anyone have any info on the Reproduction Express kits mentioned above?
I am interested in buying a set of reproduction manifolds if they exist. |
Do you have a spare few thousand euro? Lol _________________ .
My 1956 RHD Aussie Beetle ll (o\!/o) ll
Sydney, Australia |
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Stocknazi Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 5146
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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56 VDUB wrote: |
StockNazi wrote: |
56 VDUB wrote: |
ngobet wrote: |
Those are Riechert, not Express, which are not reproduced. |
If you read the 3rd post, I already stated that it was not the express kit, but would produce roughly the same amount of hp regardless. Also, there is in fact an express kit reproduction now, but the prices make the og kits seem fairly affordable.
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Anyone have any info on the Reproduction Express kits mentioned above?
I am interested in buying a set of reproduction manifolds if they exist. |
Do you have a spare few thousand euro? Lol |
I'm suprised nobody has made some reproduction manifolds for a fair price. _________________ WANTED:
58 Westfalia cabinet knobs (3 needed), roof rack, and (7) privy tent poles (silver painted).
"When the people are afraid of the government, that's tyranny. But when the government is afraid of the people, that's liberty."
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Jefferson |
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Oskar Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2004 Posts: 165 Location: Amersfoort, the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:05 am Post subject: |
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StockNazi wrote: |
56 VDUB wrote: |
StockNazi wrote: |
56 VDUB wrote: |
ngobet wrote: |
Those are Riechert, not Express, which are not reproduced. |
If you read the 3rd post, I already stated that it was not the express kit, but would produce roughly the same amount of hp regardless. Also, there is in fact an express kit reproduction now, but the prices make the og kits seem fairly affordable.
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Anyone have any info on the Reproduction Express kits mentioned above?
I am interested in buying a set of reproduction manifolds if they exist. |
Do you have a spare few thousand euro? Lol |
I'm suprised nobody has made some reproduction manifolds for a fair price. |
Like I already told you by e-mail. A few kits, including manifolds have been made. They just have not been sold or even offered up for sale.
Alejandro Martin reproduces the complete Express Kit, but getting in contact is a bit difficult without lots of patience.
Btw, I have a complete express kit for sale in the classifieds, based on original manifolds and a reproduction linkage. |
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