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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
It makes no difference how fast the entire VC is turning, or whether it is turning at all. All that matter is the raw speed difference between the 2 sets of plates.
Mark
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Exactly, which is why you can't discount the differentials, because they determine the VC rotation speed. And hence the % depends on the rotation speed (VC housing speed or input shaft speed). The propshaft RPMs are not ~100 as annotated in the sketch. They are 4.86 times faster than that. This comes back exactly to Mark's point from before -- 2% of what? In the example 102/104 is 2 RPM, so about 2% at that speed. But at 4.86 times that speed, then 2% is 4.86 x 2RM, so a much different speed differential. Then add a faster highway speed to the equation. If 30 mph becomes 60 mph, then everything is twice as fast. 2% is now 2 x 4.86 x 2RPM. It matters, because it is the speed difference between in and out that is the independent variable that the dependant variable (torque in this case) is being derived from. Expressing a difference in percent is meaningless without a reference value, and totally meaningless when one shaft is fixed, i.e. zero RPM, and Mark pointed out already.
RonC |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Differential.......
Input Shaft shaft turns at Rotation Speed "A"
Usually connected to the Transmission but in the Syncro to the Viscous Coupler.
Input Speed "A" in turn rotates the Ring gear which we say is a ratio of 4.86 to 1
Input shaft rotates 4.86 times for every one revolution of the ring gear.
The ring gear in turn drives the axle shafts passing through the Spider gears.
The Spider gears sit stationary on a straight road and allow the two axle shafts to turn one revolution.
When a curve is encountered that one revolution to both axle shafts needs to be unequally split between the two axles for inside wheel is taking a much shorter path than the outside wheel.
But now the Spider Gears are no longer stationary as they were on the straight road, they are now rotating distributing the one revolution to each axle as needed during the curve.
Let's pull numbers out of a hat, one revolution = 100%...... one axle gets 1/4th of a revolution (40%) while the other wheel gets 1/6th of a revolution (60%) of the available power to the wheels
Note: THE INPUT SHAFT STILL MADE 4.86 REVOLUTIONS
The problem arises when you realize the the rear differential is taking a shorter arc thus needing fewer rotations of it's input shaft than the front wheels require to negotiate the same curve. The Rear wheels are following smaller arcs thus they rotate fewer times.
So.........
What is the Viscous Coupler doing while the front axle is telling it that to make this curve, it requires MORE THAN THE 4.86 REVOLUTIONS being sent to it???
The rear wheels are the bullies here, just pushing and shoving the front wheels along! And while the rear wheels push the front wheels there is still only 4.86 revolutions being delivered to the front driveshaft by the transmission.
The front driveshaft now wants to/needs to spin faster than the rear driveshaft.
Where does this energy go? Absorbed by the Viscous Coupler?
If so, does it generate heat locking it up?
Or is the speed difference less than VW's 6%, (that some claim should just be ignored) thus there is zero heat build up or locking of the Viscous Coupler?
If there is no locking action, is VW's 6% real?
Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:47 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Waldi
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:37 am Post subject: |
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This all has nothing to do with practical driving.
You just ignore all kind of factors that are including dirving a curve or straight.
Driving straight there are "never" equal revs on front and rear.
There is no curve, where there is no slip on front and rear.
There is no curve where the front tires go 2 revs faster than the rear.
You can count how many circles you need to make to do that. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Waldi wrote: |
| Driving straight there are "never" equal revs on front and rear. |
You will not find equal revs ever in a real driving test, only on paper and in hypothetical renderings.
Just as in the real world, the VC has an "effect" upon the driveline whenever the vehicle is in motion and in gear, clutch disengaged.
Waldi brought up suspension a while back, now alignment can be added.
Varying alignments have a major roll in all of the "effect" that is being discussed in this thread.
Again, back to Derek.....he has offered many calculators that he has come up with to "adjust" the suspension alignment specs from Bentley and what is needed the moment you move away from stock, USDM 14" Syncro specs.
Many are driving around with alignments that are "no bueno" and exacerbate all of the issues that limit the VC to work "comfortably", thus creating heat and a "feeling" in the driver's seat that something is "wrong" with the VC. |
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
If there is no locking action, is VW's 6% real?
Dave |
Dave, lots of good info you are posting. As I think you are pointing out, the differential action side-to-side (normal open diff function) is irrelevant. So, even though Doug used the extreme example of a 33-inch tire on one side and a 25-inch tire on the other as being a ridiculous example of something that would not work, it would actually work just fine. The diffs would be spinning like crazy, but front to rear, everything would look normal. Remember the little thought experiment Mark posed last year?
Back to your question, the 6% is a meaningless number, unless you reference the speed of one shaft or the other, because it does not tell you the relative speed (which generates the shear force) between the plates. If you look at the first of the two tech references Waldi posted a page or two back you will see that they have fixed the relative speed at 75 RPM (U/min). Then they measured shear torque as a function of temperature. They were testing an Opel VC, it looks like.
VW stated the 6% number, but failed to include the reference. 6% at 2000 RPM will result in a shear speed of twice that at 1000 RPM, and that would make a huge difference in when lockup (hump mode) occurs. And you can't calculate 6% when one end is fixed. You can just try and normalize it and call fixed unity, then you get a relative speed difference of 1.06 with whatever arbitrary units you want to use, so it makes no sense If you use RPM, then you get 1.06 RPM, and at that point you will be getting pretty much exactly the speed Waldi strives for when testing his VCs -- 1 RPM. There, you are measuring the "static" shear torque; 50 N-m or 70 N-m or whatever it is for that VC.
RonC |
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IdahoDoug
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Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Jael - correct. Guys - embrace that great drawing before moving along. Please!! Pretty please! Give 12 straight posts ofguys simply posting "Ah, i get it that the syncro simply CANNOT apply engine torque on a curve on dry pavement." If you havnt grasped tgat, please have the courage to say do and I promise you will be treated with intentional and deliberate respect and I will make it happen for you, too.
Pause for a second on discussing ring and pinion ratios, 034 Engineering (im wearing their Tshirt and have their products) gear tooth dynamics, alignment, etc. i think I am not far off in saying about a quarter of you understand the concept that diagram conveys and the rest are eager to learn and discuss more complex principles. And one of you is laughing his head off by continuing to post these intentionally distracting concepts to keep the waters roiled and prevent the realization.
Just do this one simple thing, eh? All of you so inclined just check in and let me and others know you are there. Ive been doing this for 30 years and can tell there is some doubt.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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Waldi
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
...
Please!! Pretty please! Give 12 straight posts ofguys simply posting "Ah, i get it that the syncro simply CANNOT apply engine torque on a curve on dry pavement."
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You can wait long for this.
Same you could say "plz post that the world is a disc" |
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Waldi
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Another pic of the test bench in Austria.
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IdahoDoug
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Waldi,
OK - perfect. You look at that diagram Jon made and Mark also commented on with the green and red arrows and think "Yep - that 102 RPM rear shaft is spinning that 104 RPM shaft with some torque pressure".
Is that correct? No worries if that's your perception, I am just trying to quickly clear people's thinking.
Anyone else?
Going running soon, so I won't be able to play sheepdog and make you all focus for a while 
This, and only this is the absolute key concept to understanding how torque and the Syncro VC works. It is so bog simple that once you have that 'aha', you will never look at this whole concept the same. If you believe that 102RPM rear shaft in the picture is indeed twisting against the faster 104RPM front shaft, then you quite literally are not grasping torque. If you have an engineer buddy you can print that and show him/her the diagram and ask to have it explained, that might be your path. I will stake my personal reputation on this being 100% true. I will send anyone 100 dollars in cash if they can address that directly and show me to be wrong. It is so fundamental to the conversation, it is like arguing gravity. Absorb it, suddenly think "Holy shit" and your world will never be the same.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
No Jon, and that is the key conceptual error I'd say. When both the front and rear ends of the VC are turning at 102 there are NO plates slipping through the goo. When both the front and rear are turning at 1000 there are still no plates slipping through the goo.
The whole VC rotates. One set of plates is keyed on the outer edges to groves in the VC shell. The other set of plates in keyed on the inner edges to a center hub. When both ends are turning at the same speed the plates and goo and shell and hub are all holding still with respect to each other. Even if the VC unit as a whole is turning.
It makes no difference how fast the entire VC is turning, or whether it is turning at all. All that matter is the raw speed difference between the 2 sets of plates.
Mark
| Jon_slider wrote: |
I LOVE visual aids
questions:
in that example, the front plates in the VC are slipping through the goo 2% faster than the rear plates, yes?
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Unless I am missing something, Jon is correct in his question. They are not both rotating at 102 in the diagram, the front is 104, the rear is 102.
RonC |
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Waldi,
OK - perfect. You look at that diagram Jon made and Mark also commented on with the green and red arrows and think "Yep - that 102 RPM rear shaft is spinning that 104 RPM shaft with some torque pressure".
Is that correct? No worries if that's your perception, I am just trying to quickly clear people's thinking.
Anyone else?
Going running soon, so I won't be able to play sheepdog and make you all focus for a while
This, and only this is the absolute key concept to understanding how torque and the Syncro VC works. It is so bog simple that once you have that 'aha', you will never look at this whole concept the same. If you believe that 102RPM rear shaft in the picture is indeed twisting against the faster 104RPM front shaft, then you quite literally are not grasping torque. If you have an engineer buddy you can print that and show him/her the diagram and ask to have it explained, that might be your path. I will stake my personal reputation on this being 100% true. I will send anyone 100 dollars in cash if they can address that directly and show me to be wrong. It is so fundamental to the conversation, it is like arguing gravity. Absorb it, suddenly think "Holy shit" and your world will never be the same. |
Of course it is true; it always has been true. When people ask for proof, they don't need to go to an engineer. Any Physics 101 text has all the proof you need to show how a VC works. For me, the only question is how do you generate enough slip, driving down a paved straight road, to result in positive torque at the front.
RonC |
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
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Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Ron,
Hold that thought. I believe there are others who are not at that stage, yet. I agree with you 100%.
This "perception" that that 104RPM shaft can apply torque to the 102RPM shaft is why we have been arguing and bitching amongst ourselves. The funny thing is people like you are perhaps not aware we are sitting here with that concept, and the people who do not understand it are absolutely NOT accepting it. We are in two different Venn diagrams. I'm hoping someone will have the courage to say. "Yep, I'm not sure that is true, can you explain?"
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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Waldi
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Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Waldi,
OK - perfect. You look at that diagram Jon made and Mark also commented on with the green and red arrows and think "Yep - that 102 RPM rear shaft is spinning that 104 RPM shaft with some torque pressure".
Is that correct? No worries if that's your perception, I am just trying to quickly clear people's thinking.
Anyone else?
Going running soon, so I won't be able to play sheepdog and make you all focus for a while
This, and only this is the absolute key concept to understanding how torque and the Syncro VC works. It is so bog simple that once you have that 'aha', you will never look at this whole concept the same. If you believe that 102RPM rear shaft in the picture is indeed twisting against the faster 104RPM front shaft, then you quite literally are not grasping torque. If you have an engineer buddy you can print that and show him/her the diagram and ask to have it explained, that might be your path. I will stake my personal reputation on this being 100% true. I will send anyone 100 dollars in cash if they can address that directly and show me to be wrong. It is so fundamental to the conversation, it is like arguing gravity. Absorb it, suddenly think "Holy shit" and your world will never be the same. |
You own me 100 bucks, because i have shown more times theoratical and with logic (and practical with the VC test), that there is torque to the front in cruves on real driving conditions. Not always, but also not never.
You just ignore every kind of physik laws and driving dynamics. And also the function of a VC, which you never hold in your hands.
I hope it is not too personaly, but i dont care what you did the last 30 years. Just continue doing the same and dont try to make the world a disc. |
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Waldi
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Ron,
Hold that thought. I believe there are others who are not at that stage, yet. I agree with you 100%.
This "perception" that that 104RPM shaft can apply torque to the 102RPM shaft is why we have been arguing and bitching amongst ourselves. The funny thing is people like you are perhaps not aware we are sitting here with that concept, and the people who do not understand it are absolutely NOT accepting it. We are in two different Venn diagrams. I'm hoping someone will have the courage to say. "Yep, I'm not sure that is true, can you explain?" |
The front tires can never turn 2 revs faster in a turn. Not in a syncro van. |
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crazyvwvanman
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:29 am Post subject: |
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He asked about slipping. My point is that both sets of plates are not SLIPPING at different speeds through the fluid. One set is held fixed inside the housing shell. The other set slips with respect to the first set. Yes there is a raw difference of 2 rpm between the 2 sets. No, both sets are not slipping at different speeds. There is only one act of slipping that takes place, between the sets of plates. Whatever the slip rate is of one set of plates is the same slip rate as the other set, no matter how fast either end of the assemble is being rotated. In this case both sets are slipping at a rate of 2 rpms.
It was the middle of the night so I may not have been in top form, sorry.
Mark
| snowsyncro wrote: |
Unless I am missing something, Jon is correct in his question. They are not both rotating at 102 in the diagram, the front is 104, the rear is 102.
RonC |
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kamzcab86
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Waldi wrote: |
| The front tires can never turn 2 revs faster in a turn. Not in a syncro van. |
The 100/106/104/102 rpm values are merely exaggerated examples to make a point. My 15/205 tires have a straight rpm of 325, or 5.0 rps (rounded), going 30 mph. I very much doubt they're all doing this in a curve (rps at 30 mph):
11.0_______9.0
7.0________5.0
I'm guessing it's probably more like (rps):
5.25_______5.20
5.10_______5.00
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The viscous coupling is often found in all-wheel-drive vehicles. It is commonly used to link the back wheels to the front wheels so that when one set of wheels starts to slip, torque will be transferred to the other set.
The viscous coupling has two sets of plates inside a sealed housing that is filled with a thick fluid, as shown in below. One set of plates is connected to each output shaft. Under normal conditions, both sets of plates and the viscous fluid spin at the same speed. When one set of wheels tries to spin faster, perhaps because it is slipping, the set of plates corresponding to those wheels spins faster than the other. The viscous fluid, stuck between the plates, tries to catch up with the faster disks, dragging the slower disks along. This transfers more torque to the slower moving wheels -- the wheels that are not slipping.
When a car is turning, the difference in speed between the wheels is not as large as when one wheel is slipping. The faster the plates are spinning relative to each other, the more torque the viscous coupling transfers. The coupling does not interfere with turns because the amount of torque transferred during a turn is so small. However, this also highlights a disadvantage of the viscous coupling: No torque transfer will occur until a wheel actually starts slipping.
A simple experiment with an egg will help explain the behavior of the viscous coupling. If you set an egg on the kitchen table, the shell and the yolk are both stationary. If you suddenly spin the egg, the shell will be moving at a faster speed than the yolk for a second, but the yolk will quickly catch up. To prove that the yolk is spinning, once you have the egg spinning quickly stop it and then let go -- the egg will start to spin again (unless it is hard boiled). In this experiment, we used the friction between the shell and the yolk to apply force to the yolk, speeding it up. When we stopped the shell, that friction -- between the still-moving yolk and the shell -- applied force to the shell, causing it to speed up. In a viscous coupling, the force is applied between the fluid and the sets of plates in the same way as between the yolk and the shell.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential5.htm
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Slip Ratio = When forward force exceeds wheel load (for how the ratio is calculated, go to the link below)
Slip ratio is zero for a free rolling wheel. For a car braking with locked wheels the slip ratio is -1, and a car accelerating forward has a positive slip ratio. It can even be larger than 1 of there's a lot of slip.
The relationship between longitudinal (forward) force and slip ratio can be described by a curve such as the following:
Note how the force is zero if the wheel rolls, i.e. slip ratio = 0, and the force is at a peak for a slip ratio of approximately 6% where the longitudinal (forward) force slightly exceeds the wheel load. The exact curve shape may vary per tyre, per road surface, per temperature, etc. etc.
http://www.asawicki.info/Mirror/Car%20Physics%20for%20Games/Car%20Physics%20for%20Games.html
The "KN" (kN) in the graph is kilonewton, or pound-force. Perhaps Volkswagen's original 6% figure comes from their slip ratio calculation in a stock factory-original setup, which, perhaps/coincidentally, is the above 5kN wheel load (or 1124 lbf)??
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insyncro
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Mark is correct, one side is fixed.
The numbers posted are not accurate as Kam has said.
Exaggerated to try and illustrate. |
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IdahoDoug
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Waldi,
Are you serious? The front shaft can never turn faster than the rears? Did you know that the front tires HAVE TO turn faster than the rears on a curve? That, my friend is an absolute unequivocal fact. You are quite literally completely and totally missing a fundamental of an automobile on 4 wheels in a curve. You have a good grasp of several technical aspects of a VC. So it completely surprises. me. Call someone you know there in your home town and show them that diagram. I am being completely respectful in saying this, Waldi.
Can someone else here help Waldi with that one? It is exactly as I surmised - there is a true fundamental and basic understanding that MUST be understood in order to resolve this issue, and Waldi is a textbook perfect example of that. Anyone?
Please, please, please don't try to move the dialog forward on measurements, arguements over ratios, etc. There are fundamental understandings here. Snowsyncro's got it. Waldi does not, and he's fairly technical. That should make a lot of you nod and agree with me that there's little point in adding complexity when there are people actively participating in this discussion that do not agree that on a curve the front two tires are going faster/farther than the rears.
Again, Waldi - total respect here. Not at all attempting to embarrass you and in fact I should say something I've been meaning to say. You are a very talented guy to participate in a technical discussion that is not your native language!!
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader
Last edited by IdahoDoug on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Waldi
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Who wants to know the slip of his car can do a simple test.
Drive with exact 2500 engine revs in last gear a track check the speed with gps.
Drive at 5000 revs the same track and the speed has to be the double. The difference is your slip.
Yes there is also slip driving with 2500 but it will be higher at 5000.
Or if you are good at counting you can do this also with 1000 and 5000 ;P
Edit:
And if the world is not a disc, there will be less slip driving coupled than in 2wd
Last edited by Waldi on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Waldi
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Waldi,
Are you serious? The front shaft can never turn faster than the rears? Did you know that the front tires HAVE TO turn faster than the rears on a curve? That, my friend is an absolute unequivocal fact. You are quite literally completely and totally missing a fundamental of an automobile on 4 wheels in a curve. You have a good grasp of several technical aspects of a VC. So it completely surprises. me. Call someone you know there in your home town and show them that diagram. I am being completely respectful in saying this, Waldi.
Can someone else here help Waldi with that one? It is exactly as I surmised - there is a true fundamental and basic understanding that MUST be understood in order to resolve this issue, and Waldi is a textbook perfect example of that. Anyone? |
Your post starting to be more and more stupid.
Are you trying to provoke me ? |
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