Timing Woes on Newly Installed Engine

[oscarsnapkin]

- '77 2.0 GD code engine, just rebuilt by Headflow Masters
- FI system purchased used, from a '77 Federal
- All vacuum hoses are new and tight
- According to invoice I received, engine has hydraulic lifters

So, after owning it for 9 1/2 years, I just started my bus for the very first time yesterday. The engine is brand new, and it was the first time it has ever been started. Before starting, I located the notch on the pulley as shown by Ratwell.

I turned the pulley until the notch was just shy of the 8 degree mark, and I set the distributor so the rotor was pointing at the number 1 firing position. After allowing the oil pressure to build up I connected the ignition wires and the engine started right up. The timing mark that I had set to the 8 degree mark was way off to the left, almost off of the scale. I tried turning the distributor to set the timing, but when I closed in on the correct reading, the engine began to run like shit, to the point of almost stalling. I definitely had the timing gun connected to the correct wire, I double checked twice. There was also some 'popping' from the exhaust, which I assume is from the timing problem. Am I going about this the wrong way? I could definitely use some advice on this.
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- 1977 CEI Sunroof Bus 2.0L F.I. Hydraulic Lifters
- 1973 Thing

"It’s so easy to laugh, it’s so easy to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind."

[aerosurfer]

You do have a timing scale right? If not stop and get one on there. You are running some sort of Vac advanced dizzy and not an 009?

Pull the #1 Plug and pop off the distributor cap, Now rotate the engine by hand until the cap is pointing at firing position #1, look down plug hole, and see where the piston is, should be very close to TDC. Once you can make that determination, you can proceed.

You may have to eyeball and rotate the Distributor to the firing position with the cap position.

Set the motor to 4-8 BTDC, and snug but not fully tighten it down. All else being equal, The car should start anywhere from -10 to +10 of TDC.

Now once running, get the timing light out, make sure the gun is set to flash on 0* advance and tape or secure the adjustment (on the gun).

Have you broke in the Cam yet? Forget timing for now (mostly) and get the breakin done first. If it runs smooth go with it. you can always make adjustments while its breaking in. 2000-2500RPM should likely be in the 15-22* Mechanical advance range.

Then you can set the timing after the oil has been changed, 3500RPM hoses off, 28-30* BTDC

The popping you can fgure out later, but its related to the mixture or the bad timing.
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)

[williamM]

Aerosurf has it- timing 101- we have heard of fan and pulleys taken apart and the pulley put on wrong ruining your chance of correct timing- but if you can see the piston and feel the valves close, your pretty close to TDC. Once there, check your mark and scale (not the engine case seam) for correct orientation. Remember the scale works for the piston location - if thats wrong, your not going to be happy.
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[Tcash]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=552509&highlight=

[SGKent]

T4 timing as found on a 1977 GD. The marker in the photo is on TDC. Yours probably is 7.5 BTDC at idle but we time these at 28 - 29 BTDC at full in RPM with the hoses off. Ask for assistance if you don't know how to do that. Since timing and scales have been discussed 10,389 times this year expect flak.

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[Wildthings]

Setting the timing is idle speed is an iffy proposition. If you have the hoses on then you are dependent on having the hoses run 100% correctly and all the hoses and diaphragms holding vacuum, the throttle body has to be properly adjusted and not worn out as well. You are also dependent on the rpm's being low enough that the centrifugal advance has not yet started. Set you timing statically at 8° like you did and then reset it using a timing light at 28-30° BTDC at 3500+ rpms with the hose(s) off and plugged.

[oscarsnapkin]

[Wildthings]

The engine will only run over a timing range of +/- 30° (crank angle) of where it should be, so no the engine will not run if the timing is 180° out or even 90° out on the cap.

There is an off chance the key that aligns the fan hub with the crankshaft is missing or sheared. You can not set the timing if this has happened. There is also a roll pin that aligns the fan with the hub and if it were missing someone may have put the fan on the hub incorrectly.

If you are using an advance style timing light, you need to turn the advance feature off when setting the timing on these engines.

[Wasted youth]

I'm a little mystified by your comment that the engine was just rebuilt and you are having timing issues. I would presume that the engine would be checked thoroughly for mechanically related timing issues (cam, distributor, fan mount relationship, valve train, etc.) prior to release to you. At that point, timing and ignition would be partial to engine management, not internal mechanical.

Was the entire engine just rebuilt, or was it just the heads, or a long block, or what

Did you verify each and every component of your fuel injection set up was tested and met minimum standard?

On my 1977 FI bus I had what seemed like a timing issue, which turned out to be a broken off wire from one of the four fuel injector resistors in the pack.

Another time I had a rough, very hard to get started condition, which turned out to be a faulty brand new TSII sensor. I really loved that fuel injected system when it ran as intended, but learned that each and every component must be given respect.

Also, I thought one of the first things to do with a rebuilt engine is to break in the cam?

[SGKent]

[oscarsnapkin]

[SGKent]

[timvw7476]

One observation: Type IV engines do run on three cylinders when spark/fuel
is taken away from one. If the engine is warm it will lope along & not die.
I would check the distributor, twist the rotor to be sure the centrifugal
mechanism is free, the rotor should move a bit and come back
You may have to pull the distributor & check the advance plate to see if
the plate the points are on can move, if it's frozen,even partially,you
won't get full travel there either.
If you can't measure from 8 degrees BTDC to 28 BTDC it may be a broken
spring/ internal corrosion stopping it.

[Wasted youth]

Without trying to suck his ass, nor detract from the original point of this thread, I would like to say that SGKent is very knowledgeable, a frequent contributor and has helped me often. Either by reading his old threads or posts, or direct and continuous contributions. There are many people here just like that. Were it not for these folks, I would be as ignorant to the cause as I was just a couple of years ago.

That said, calling your bus a POS (whether you were facetious or not) will often trigger the response you did not like reading. Trust me, I was shocked at how serious some people take this craft. You will need to develop a thick skin. Any doubts about that, just suggest putting on a Weber Progressive and painting your bus with Rustoleum.

[busdaddy]

Wow indeed!, a VW (or any mechanical contrivance for that matter) is very similar to a computer, garbage in = garbage out, blame the bus or the attitude of people trying to help all you want but in the end the way it runs (or doesn't) is entirely the result of what you yourself do.
Now's the time to make a choice, either peel all that stuff off an reinstall it in a methodical method following the data readily available in the books, or continue to throw feces at everyone who makes suggestions that don't quite jive with your idea of how the world should work or disagree with your somewhat misguided theories.

Sorry Oscar, you've gone down quite a few notches on the respect scale with me.
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[airkooledchris]

There has been a few users over this past year (one in my area) with poor injectors after having them serviced by Cruzin unfortunately. Perhaps you did leave them sit too long and maybe that's what happened with the others as well.

If you have a spare set you can swap with, go for it.

SKGent has provided me some of the most valuable information on TS. Your assumptions of he are even further off the mark than his may have been of you, let it go and move on.

[oscarsnapkin]

[Wasted youth]

I am heading out the door here, but...

Verified vacuum leaks?

Verified correct distributor? >> Check OldVolksHome they have a table of distributors based on models/years, etc.

[aerosurfer]

Yeah, hoses and Vacuum leaks seem to be (one of) your likely next steps.

Is your AFM plugged in? You can unplug it to start and that should help you keep it running while the idle warms up.

Have you checked and rechecked all the electrical connections to the Double relay and series resistor, as well as the TS2 being seated in the head snugly.

Let it run for 20-30 mins, then you need to set (recheck) the valves. 3/4-1 1/2 turns once the lifters are pumped up. The first few thousand miles on my engine seemed to like it best about 3/4 turn. While the valve cover is off, you can also make sure the rocker shaft nuts are torqued down properly and the pushrod tube spring is seated. this is just good maintenance.

Popping out the exhaust is either leaks, intake or exhaust, or richness. Which could be directly related to the extreme advanced timing you say you are having.

Also popping could be a bad decel valve, but you are not there yet.

You are sure your timing light is not advanced? It starts... so stop static timing it, now loosen the distributor to get it timed properly.

Also we all like pics.... plus it couldn't hurt to have another set of eyes looking at the motor



PS... Happy 500th post to me!
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)

[Waves2day]