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Restoration versus Conservation - Philosophy of Bugs
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Richard F
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Restoration versus Conservation - Philosophy of Bugs Reply with quote

I would like to know Samba members' views on the philosophy of restoration. If one is trying to have a car as close to stock as possible, which approach should one take? To restore the car is to repaint, repair and replace as necessary. This makes it appear much like it did when it was built. But museum curators reject the idea of restoring art objects. Instead, they conserve art objects; they clean the piece thoroughly and only tamper with it in order to prevent further deterioration. Curators say that restoration takes the piece further away from its original state. Once again, if the aim is to have the car as close to original as possible, should we restore it or conserve it? In my case, I just bought a 1961 Beetle, which is in fantastic shape. It still has the original--albeit faded--paint. I want it as close to original as possible. Should I repaint it?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucky for you there is the samba classifieds, that way you can keep it running and original. If you have a completely original car with half way decent paint then painting it will decrease the value. Post pictures, we want to see. These guys are amazing with their knowledge of VW. Post a picture and they will gladly scrutinize it pointing out details that I would never think to look for.

You can check the engine code to make sure it came with the car here in the technical section.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what ptjjb said:
If it's a really nice original car but the paint is faded, I would say keep it as-is.

It's most likely worth more this way and you won't have to worry about any additional minor chips or scratches.

Obviously we would like to see photos and could be more specific.

He is also correct that if you really want to make it super "correct" post photos of everything and people here can tell you down to the smallest detail anything that is "wrong" for a '61.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a fine line between nice original, needing to be refurbished and wore the fuck out.

lots of guys seem to be liking the "wore the fuck out" look these days, but if a car is in need of refurbishing then it needs to be done. nice original examples are out there, and can be preserved to the best of ones ability, but keeping a car 100% factory condition bone stock is somewhat difficult due to parts availabity/quality and you loose a good part of the ability to "personalize" your ride to your preferences.

if your car is nice original then try to keep it that way if that is what you decide is in your best interest, but dont be afraid to mod it to your taste either. you want tunes - install a stereo, you want better handling - do some suspension and tire mods, you want good performance then look into engine and tranny mods. many modifications can be done tastefully without necessarily ruining the original "feel" of the car.

if you want to preserve it as it is, wrap it up in plastic and hide it away in your climate controlled garage to be only looked at a few times a year.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do post pictures in your gallery of the vehicle. That was all of have the ability to view them.
My 68 is very original, the paint got sunburned while sitting in the hot dry desert for many years. (look in my gallery). Do I want to paint it nope. Am I gonna keep it as original as possible yep. It is a survivor, unrestored original.
Flip side, it is your vehicle, paint it, drop it to the ground, chop the top, cut up the fenders, add a giant engine, modify the dash. Now when it comes to sell it your market will be so narrow with a car like that. My opinion is an orignal unrestored car has a broader resale market.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im a recondition/resurrection rather than restoration as that term is loosely used by most these days.
A full restoration takes time, money and serious dedication to detail.

It was only new ONCE..
Im in the majority here.. if its a survivor the paint is saveable and only minor issues.. keep it as it is however, you can ALWAYS make changes to suite your own idea and personality..... .just do NOT do things that cant be undone easily.


If its roached out... resurrect and recondition how ever you like... as one rollin' is one saved from the crusher..and mother nature..
#1 advice.. . use original colors... as its an easier sale.. .


Rust is RUST... it will only get worse over time.. fix that shit..


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Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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hitest
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm definitely a conserve/preserve guy- but enough rust or aftermarket paint is enough. Case by case basis...
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79SuperVert
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the conserve / preserve approach, but sometimes you do what you have to because otherwise the car is going to deteriorate. Some examples:

My left rear fender had a big scrape from a PO, which he covered by brush painting it with a close but not exact version of turquoise. Over the 8 years that I owned it, the paint began to bubble, and each year more of the scrape would come off and I would touch it up just to keep it from rusting. But this year I finally had to bite the bullet and repaint the OG fender, because otherwise all the paint would eventually bubble up. So now I have only one out of the four fenders with OG paint. But better than to have that rear fender rust away.

The upholstery in my car is original, but the seams are splitting a little more each year. As much as I'd like to keep it the way it is, eventually I'm going to have the upholstery repaired, which may require replacing the piping. It won't be OG piping any more, but at some point it's just going to look terrible if I don't fix it.

The steering wheel was chewed up by the first owner's dog. So for years it carried a leather wrap. But I was able to find an NOS correct steering wheel, so I couldn't resist. I saved the original steering wheel, though.

The turn signal control was original but needed rebuilding. I found an NOS one and it works like new. Did the replacement steering wheel and the turn signal reduce the value of the car? I don't know. It looks so much better, and works like new. And the parts are the correct era, original manufacture. Hard to say.
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Last edited by 79SuperVert on Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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drscope
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I like driving them much more then working on them or worrying about how they look, so I want to do whatever it takes to keep it rolling.

But mainly I know if I started a proper restoration it would never get finished - just like a dozen other projects that have been in the works for the last 30 years or more.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you used the word museum, I don'think it is fair to compare art work which is in a controlled environment to vehicles out on the street. Not even trailer would qualify under your definition.

Geoff
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Richard F
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Lucky for you there is the samba classifieds, that way you can keep it running and original. If you have a completely original car with half way decent paint then painting it will decrease the value. Post pictures, we want to see. These guys are amazing with their knowledge of VW. Post a picture and they will gladly scrutinize it pointing out details that I would never think to look for.

You can check the engine code to make sure it came with the car here in the technical section.


Thanks for this. The VIN tag number and the tunnel VIN number match. They also correlate with the engine number. The numbers tell me that the car was built in December, 1960.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
I agree with what ptjjb said:
If it's a really nice original car but the paint is faded, I would say keep it as-is.

It's most likely worth more this way and you won't have to worry about any additional minor chips or scratches.

Obviously we would like to see photos and could be more specific.

He is also correct that if you really want to make it super "correct" post photos of everything and people here can tell you down to the smallest detail anything that is "wrong" for a '61.


I will soon take a number of shots and will post them. I look forward to feedback.
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Richard F
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
Im a recondition/resurrection rather than restoration as that term is loosely used by most these days.
A full restoration takes time, money and serious dedication to detail.

It was only new ONCE..
Im in the majority here.. if its a survivor the paint is saveable and only minor issues.. keep it as it is however, you can ALWAYS make changes to suite your own idea and personality..... .just do NOT do things that cant be undone easily.


If its roached out... resurrect and recondition how ever you like... as one rollin' is one saved from the crusher..and mother nature..
#1 advice.. . use original colors... as its an easier sale.. .


Rust is RUST... it will only get worse over time.. fix that shit..


.


I like the notion that it is "only new once." Very true. I also agree that one shouldn't do anything that cannot be easily undone. That is exactly what curators say. Today's preservation technique may be obsolete tomorrow and replaced by a better technique.
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Richard F
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

79SuperVert wrote:
I like the conserve / preserve approach, but sometimes you do what you have to because otherwise the car is going to deteriorate. Some examples:

My left rear fender had a big scrape from a PO, which he covered by brush painting it with a close but not exact version of turquoise. Over the 8 years that I owned it, the paint began to bubble, and each year more of the scrape would come off and I would touch it up just to keep it from rusting. But this year I finally had to bite the bullet and repaint the OG fender, because otherwise all the paint would eventually bubble up. So now I have only one out of the four fenders with OG paint. But better than to have that rear fender rust away.

The upholstery in my car is original, but the seams are splitting a little more each year. As much as I'd like to keep it the way it is, eventually I'm going to have the upholstery repaired, which may require replacing the piping. It won't be OG piping any more, but at some point it's just going to look terrible if I don't fix it.

The steering wheel was chewed up by the first owner's dog. So for years it carried a leather wrap. But I was able to find an NOS correct steering wheel, so I couldn't resist. I saved the original steering wheel, though.

The turn signal control was original but needed rebuilding. I found an NOS one and it works like new. Did the replacement steering wheel and the turn signal reduce the value of the car? I don't know. It looks so much better, and works like new. And the parts are the correct era, original manufacture. Hard to say.


Absolutely, one must take action if deterioration will occur otherwise. My question is whether or not to take action (and if so, to what degree) when it is just aesthetics in question. But you're correct: it is hard to say.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GB2S wrote:
Since you used the word museum, I don'think it is fair to compare art work which is in a controlled environment to vehicles out on the street. Not even trailer would qualify under your definition.

Geoff


This is an excellent point and shows that my original posting was somewhat unclear. I did not intend to compare how well or how easily one can preserve an object in a controlled environment versus preserving a car, which must live in at best a semi-controlled environment. Without doubt it is much easier to preserve a museum object. (Of course one could, as 67jason said, wrap it in plastic and hide it in a climate-controlled garage, but then that is not treating it as it was originally, that is, a functioning car.) My original intention was simply to ask which process brings the current car "closer to the original car": restoration or preservation?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool topic, and its nice to see well reasoned posts on it.

I'll add to the stew:

Well preserved and maintained cars should be more or less left alone because they CAN be...they don't need for much. Ain't broke, don't fix it. However, definitions are broad: An original car can be the car in the plastic bubble or a impromptu terrarium behind a barn....one you would leave alone, the other you would need to restore if you wanted to use it for anything but a planter.

"Restoration", also covers such a broad spectrum of condition that it is difficult to really define....I have an old american brand convertible that has a 100℅ mechanical restoration but has lousy paint and a torn top. It is "restored" as far as I am ever going to take it.

Years ago I bought a running basket case buggy, tore it down to the last nut and bolt and made it a safe, reliable car that incorporated some modern safety improvements. It now looks like a brand new 50 year old car.

A third 60s american car that was my mother's car in the 80's has original paint and interior. I rebuilt the engine transmission and brakes but left the cosmetics untouched.

All are "restorations", finished cars in my book, but each had a different starting (and ending) place or condition, requiring more work in some cases and in some specific areas than in others. In addition, my expectations/interest level in these projects was different for each, as was my financial commitment.

What is "right" for a car is so completely dependant on these factors that there really isn't a right way. It comes down to what is possible, and desired by the owner.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wythac wrote:
What is "right" for a car is so completely dependant on these factors that there really isn't a right way. It comes down to what is possible, and desired by the owner.


And, I'd like to add, by the prospective buyer!

What I mean is, we can spend a lot of time and money and effort trying to figure out what makes our cars hold their value the best, and then someone comes to buy it who uses it as a creative outlet for their bottled up artistic energies!

That's why when I think I can't keep my Beetle any more I'm going to offer it to my Beetle club, even if I don't get as much for it as I would like. I feel they will treat it right.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed! In a sale situation, the buyer's POV on what constitutes "original" or "restored" is a factor in determining a sale price...however I would venture to guess that in most cases they are really two different groups of potential customers,

The "survivor" class at auto shows and auctions is really up and coming...I find it fascinating to look at them as historic artifacts. The founder of the LeMay car museum in Tacoma made a point of buying cars and asking the previous owners not to clean them out/up, he even wanted the contents of the glove box and the spent gum wrappers under the seats left exactly as they were...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see that it might depend on your use (or lack of). For my daily driver I follow my philosophy of repair “clean what’s dirty, oil what turns, tighten what’s loose and save all the pieces.” That is for a '74 Super.

But I have another that is my '60. It was beat to heck during it's life, but has a good starting point to bring it back to what it was supposed to be. I'm going to build it to the 6v, 36hp, no radio standard. It will take time, but that will be as close to "original" as I will get.

My '64 is a different story. While I kept the colors and interior correct for the year, I upgraded the brakes, moved to 12v, put a 1500 in it, and a great stereo. While not a daily driver, it tends to be pampered more than the Super.

Barn finds are getting harder to come by. While I have no problem with someone taking a P.O.S. and making it a Baha, or something strange. Doing that to an "original" car tends to make me weep.
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79SuperVert
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's one that struck me as pertinent to the discussion, although I don't know the history of this bus and I don't want to in any way impugn the motives of the restoration:

According to the ad, it has only 64,000 miles, full documentation and a very interesting history. It had won numerous Best In Show awards and to quote the ad, "had never really deteriorated" before it was decided to restore it completely. Now they are asking $350K.

So I think the question for this thread is, did they do the right thing taking such a time capsule that was in pretty decent shape, and basically destroy its originality but in the process make it look and feel factory fresh?

By "destroy its originality" I mean that as soon as you start taking things apart, the original labor and effort and materials that were used to assemble the car are gone or materially changed. Even if you reuse everything after you clean it, it's not the same any more. Does that matter?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1703897

And to answer my own question, I guess if you want to experience what the bus felt like when it came out of the factory and you're willing to pay $350K for the experience, then yes, they did the right thing.
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