Author |
Message |
gimmesomeshelter Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2004 Posts: 1466 Location: San Carlos, CA
|
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:40 pm Post subject: Porsche lifters in 36hp case solved?! |
|
|
I was glancing at a friend's copy of Hot VW's Jan' 2015 issue, and it looks like Darrell Vittone was able to install Porsche lifters in a 25HP case. I tried buying a copy from some of the local auto parts stores, but it looks like most of them have stopped carrying magazines. Has anyone read the article? If so, does it show how he did it?
Cheers,
Paul _________________ "I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RareAir Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2002 Posts: 14577 Location: 18 miles North of the border
|
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
The 25/36hp lifter bores are sleeved with a Bronze bush. Then the bushing is bored to size for the Porsche lifters. I believe the engine also required custom length push rods which were supplied by BugPack (for this particular build) _________________ 1947 Typ 11a
1954 Typ 117
1956 Typ 151
1959 Typ 117
1959 Typ 265
1961 356B
1966 Typ 151
1966 Typ 241 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Motorhead Mad Scientist
Joined: January 06, 2004 Posts: 717 Location: Practitioner of 36hp alchemy
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 727 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
|
Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:20 am Post subject: Re: Porsche lifters in 36hp case solved?! |
|
|
gimmesomeshelter wrote: |
I was glancing at a friend's copy of Hot VW's Jan' 2015 issue, and it looks like Darrell Vittone was able to install Porsche lifters in a 25HP case. I tried buying a copy from some of the local auto parts stores, but it looks like most of them have stopped carrying magazines. Has anyone read the article? If so, does it show how he did it?
Cheers,
Paul |
That's the easy part. Bushing the 36hp lifter boss and then reaming to the smaller sized mushroom 3pc. case Porsche lifter is not new to me. What the magazine failed to mention or show is the lifter bosses were NOT straightened, perpendicular to the cam center line at a 90* angle. The 36hp block uses a RADIUS lifter that contacts the camshaft at an angle which is the way it was designed to be used. If you use a 3pc. Porsche mushroom lifter, the camshaft will contact the lifter on the top part sooner and then when the camshaft turns 180*, it will contact the mushroon lifter later as it is "further" away hence its angle. I have no idea how it will affect the cam timing as the camshaft will contact the 3pc. case Porsche mushroom lifters at "different" times. I have toy'd with this idea of installing a Porsche 3pc. mushroom lifter type camshaft since it was the correct lenght and simple machining the 1st cam bearing saddle many years ago but got stuck since both 2pc. and 3pc. engines used 2 entirely different lifter profiles. In my opinion, the CORRECT way to get a 3pc. Porsche lifter AND camshaft to work together and LIVE is to straighten the lifter bosses. Now you have 2 components that were designed to work in the same fashion as Porsche intended in a different case/block. The cam and lifter does not care what the block is made of nor its configuration only that the 2 components are "working together" as intended......Make sense? Cheers, Mr. Okrasa _________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OMT Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2004 Posts: 296
|
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: Mushroom lifters |
|
|
Good post Joe,
Glad to see you're opening up. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fcampbell356 Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Pensacola, Florida
|
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject: Porsche cam & Lifters |
|
|
Joe:
What would be the effect of using a Porsche 3-piece case type camshaft
with the 2 piece case lifters? In a 36hp case. Of course machining the
cam bore to accept the Porsche cam.
Frank |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
|
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Im no exspert on this but ...does the porsche have the lifters at an angle? probably not, same as the vw I suspect.but it's a raidi kinda like a roller cam. so all that is needed is to do the bush job and use the proper camshaft or else you will have somewhat less duration. or in this case going from raidi to mushroom you get more duration. just as you do if you change roller lifters that have a bigger roller, it contacts the ramp sooner. but I could be way off hear as I have been 7 times now. I do have roller cam vw's&v8's the cam lobes are much wilder looking . and to use a cam lobe like that you need either a roller or a mushroom.I gess the mushroom won out in this fight. there are many way to skin a cat. I have the article but havent read it all as of yet. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 727 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
|
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Porsche cam & Lifters |
|
|
fcampbell356 wrote: |
Joe:
What would be the effect of using a Porsche 3-piece case type camshaft
with the 2 piece case lifters? In a 36hp case. Of course machining the
cam bore to accept the Porsche cam.
Frank |
Hi Frank,
Same problem.....You are using 2 components that were not designed to be used together. Will the engine run....probably but not for long.
I have not tried doing this set-up so I cannot give you an honest opinion. Cheers. _________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9147 Location: Canada
|
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As long as the top and bottom edges of the lifters are equidistant to the centerline of the cam it will not matter that the lifter bores are at an angle in the case. As far as longevity. I don't think that is a true concern in an LSR motor where HP is the only true measure of success. I agree that it was one of the wickedest sounding engines out there this year, certainly better than mine.
brad |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 727 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
|
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
slalombuggy wrote: |
As long as the top and bottom edges of the lifters are equidistant to the centerline of the cam it will not matter that the lifter bores are at an angle in the case. As far as longevity. I don't think that is a true concern in an LSR motor where HP is the only true measure of success. I agree that it was one of the wickedest sounding engines out there this year, certainly better than mine.
brad |
As long as the mushroom lifter is coming in at an angle to the camshaft centerline, there will never be equal distances at the top nor bottom.
I build engines to run and LAST so I never joined parts together that were never meant to be together......make sense? Cheers. _________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vwnc Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 173
|
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
On 36 hp lift bores, I talked with Brothers VW Machine Shop and they claim than can re-sleeve 36 hp lift bores and machine back to accept stock lifter. If this is the case, they are the first ones I've seen that offer this service. Has anyone had this done? My lift borers in block are really worn. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 727 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
|
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
vwnc wrote: |
On 36 hp lift bores, I talked with Brothers VW Machine Shop and they claim than can re-sleeve 36 hp lift bores and machine back to accept stock lifter. If this is the case, they are the first ones I've seen that offer this service. Has anyone had this done? My lift borers in block are really worn. |
Boring the lifter bosses on a 36hp to re-sleeve is easy. Basic machine shop service. I'm sure any good machine shop can do this service.
What I'm talking about is STRAIGHTENING the lifter boss, perpendicular to the 36hp camshaft center line in order to run a 356/912
camshaft and lifters. Who can perform this service? Cheers. Mr. Okrasa _________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
latenightaircooled Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2004 Posts: 33 Location: Chico, CA 95973
|
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I believe Mr. Okrassa is correct, and you could prove it for yourself if you have made this modification by degreeing the camshaft in with the #1 cyl. and then the # 3 cyl. You will find cam timing on the 3/4 side of the 36 eng. will be retarded, compared to the 1/2 side. Juan _________________ LATENIGHTAIRCOOLED
VW Hotrods & Restorations
530-774-7275 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fcampbell356 Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Pensacola, Florida
|
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So, after reading the replies in this thread, what would be a choice for a camshaft in a 36hp case with profile of a 1500S Porsche engine?
Of course using Pre A lifters.
Anyone? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gimmesomeshelter Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2004 Posts: 1466 Location: San Carlos, CA
|
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Get the flow numbers for your heads and call Dema Elgin. He'll be able to make a cam that fits your engine.
Here's an article about a shop that worked with Mr. Elgin. http://www.willhoitautorestoration.com/1500_super.php
Cheers,
Paul _________________ "I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HBH72 Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2005 Posts: 44 Location: Europe
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting topic – I have also made some thoughs on this one.
Changing the 36HP cam follower from radius tappets to flat tappet may very well go wrong:
A: the shape of the cam lobe. The cam is designed for either radius or flat tappet follower - not both.
B: the cam followers angle. All radius followers (2 piece 36 HP case) is placed at a slight angle. All flat tappets (3 piece 356 case or VW 40HP 2 piece case) are placed in same horizontal line as the cylinders.
So no VW or Porsche engine case is originally designed with flat tappet cam follower placed at the slight angle (as on 36HP 2 piece case).
Below is from a 1960 VW tuning book by Henry Elfrink, where he writes about this:
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3685 Location: Eastern WA
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:50 pm Post subject: Porsche lifters in 36hp case solved?! |
|
|
Other than a timing difference on opening and closing, what other issues or problems would occur running flat tappets at the increased angle to the cam? _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
avus Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2005 Posts: 268 Location: Drain, Oregon
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Porsche lifters in 36hp case solved?! |
|
|
Teeroy wrote: |
Other than a timing difference on opening and closing, what other issues or problems would occur running flat tappets at the increased angle to the cam? |
To me it would seem, none. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HBH72 Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2005 Posts: 44 Location: Europe
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Placing the cam followers at a slight angle (not horizontal with cylinder line) should not affect the overall valve opening time.
However, it must have very little influence on the excact valve opening and closing points (left side being a little too early and right side a little too late).
But that must be the same situation whether the cam follower is a radius tappet or a flat tappet ! And proberbly why the design later were changed, separating the pushrod and cam follower - to be able to get the cam follower positioned at 180 deg above each other (horizontal with cylinder line).
Anyway, the only reason for changing the cam followers in a 36HP case to flat tappet type ones, is when also changing the camshaft - to eventually a 356A camshaft (which is designed to work with flat tappet followers) - right..?
PS: has anyone ever made bushings for flat tappet cam followers, in a 36HP engine case, in a way that allows the cam followers to be positioned in straight horizontial line..? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Is there room for a roller cam in a 36hp case, I think a Harley Sportser has a roller lifter body that not very big in diameter but the roller is fairly large.
Casey _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|