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Rear wheel bearing housing, how to get it off?
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Rear wheel bearing housing, how to get it off? Reply with quote

I thougt of cleaning and re-greasing the rear wheel bearings but there is a problem in getting the housing which holds the bearings off. The 4 bolt bearing cover is off but I can only reach the outer bearing to reach the inner I need to get the housing off, seems to be stuck, it has not been off in 41 years...dont want to use the hammer to much and the Haynes dont help me...neither do I have that part of the factory manual...how do I do it the right way?


/Lars S
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we are speaking of the outer cast iron bearing, cover right? The one with the seal pressed in.....so stub axle came out right? Then four bolts.....and the cover/race and seal carrier wont budge?

On a few of the early cars I "think" there was a locating pin on the cover....but not on the later ones.

Once the 4 bolts are out.....if you can get the cover to turn....it will, come loose. I install these using anti-sieze to prevent this same issue.
take a brass drift and place it in the scallop area on either side of the top of the 4 bolt cover and tap it sideways. Once it turns a little tap it back the other way and add some pendtraying oil.

If that fails....the "book" way is to remove the hard brake line from the wheel cylinder and simply tap the backng plate forward. It will push the cover off. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ray!

I was a bit mistaken, and mis lead you some; the 4 bolt cover came off easy but I thougt more of the housing that carries the bearings was to come off also but now I realize that part is fixed and I have to take the CV axle/joint out to service the inner bearing from the inner side.
Right?


/Lars S
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah....yes.....
Typically I remove the outer cover, the outer bearing, the inner hub, with CV joint....remove the inner spacer and then use 1' long brass drift to tap out the inner race.

Then....if you dont have a bearing race driver.....you can take the old inner race and sand its OD so it will not get stuck. ...and then have it welded to a piece of steel rod with the thin lip facing inward. It makes a decent tool for driving in both the new race and new seal. Ray
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Ah....yes.....


Then....if you dont have a bearing race driver.....you can take the old inner race and sand its OD so it will not get stuck. ...and then have it welded to a piece of steel rod with the thin lip facing inward. It makes a decent tool for driving in both the new race and new seal. Ray


Good idea Ray, I made this tool...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...and managed to fit ´theese...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...but i was a PITA to get the inner race in from laying under the car, would never have made it without the tool.


/Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes....exactly. Getting the inner seal and race in straight is difficult and critical. Also I find much much better life span on bith bearings by heavily packing....not over packing but putting excess grease into the center cavity. It prevents the main bearing grease from backing out under pressure. I do the same for the front rotors.

I have installed a grease nipple on the rear bearing housing of each trailing arm. I pack the bearings, then pump grease until I just see flow out of a seal. Then put the wheel on the stub before installing the brakes so i can easily rotate the shaft for several minutes to make sure any excess grease is squeezed out so it can be wiped up.

Doing that has virtually erradicated worn out bearings in the rear end. With heavy trafgic and poor roads and very high miles....easily 800-1000 a week....I used to have to replace at least one bearing about every 6-8 months.

Stopping at 4-5 months to repack the bearings really got rid of this problem. When I pulled the bearings I always found most of the grease squeezed back....this was also in hot climates. I found overpacking got rid of this problem. I just added the grease nipple to make it easier and less messy. Ray
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Ray I read in the Autobook for 411 that 1oz (30 grams) of grease should be put in to the center cavity but I believe one can put a bit more in there.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the side where I havnt changed the bearings there is a minor play when rocking the wheel (but no bad sound when rotating it like it was on the other side), should it be any play if bearings are OK?

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazing timing on this question.

There should be no play. The rear wheels are difficult as they age to allow these bearings to survive.


The problem is two fold.

1. Newer bearings...while they may or may not be as good of quality as we used to get...have very slightly different tolerance to the inner race.

2. The inner spacer with age gets a slight amount of wear or deformation to the faces that bear against the inner races of both bearings.

We are talking about small variances here. You may have say .0005" of lower thckness to say...the inner bearing and maybe .0003" to the outer bearing...and maybe .0001 or wear to each end of the spacer.

What this means is a total stack up of loss (usually loss but sometimes gain..which is a better thing)....of say about .001". This does not sound like much...but it makes setting proper bearing preload by the book difficult.

Typically going by the book we end up with less preload than it should have just to keep from damaging the bearings. This is because the spacer or the spacer combined with inner bearing races are too short to have proper tension load between them.
Its not a serious wear item....but typically this will be the cause of the occasional bearing that you pull out that has a line worn at the 11:00- 1:00 quadrant of the outer race and moderate spalling to the end of the rollers.

Its caused by the spacer and inner race stack up being too short and allowing the bearing to cock slightly on cornering. Its more prevalent on the outer bearing. This is some of the movement you feel.

What this also starts to cause is that the recess in the trailing arm housing for the outer race gets stretched with age. This is also part of the movement you feel.

You can see this last problem if the outer race rotates in the bore easily. One thing that can help this is better clamping pressure from the outer bearing cover. You can lap it about .001-.0015" on glass with 600-1000 grit paper and it holds the race tighter.

The solution to this...just like when setting the spacer length if a differential is to source some longer hardend spacers and lap them to sufficient length.

Or....you can lap them undersized and slip in some thin precision shims which may be cheaper and just as easy. This will mean for a long day of install, test with an inch pound torque wrench...pull off hub again...lap shim...repeat. But i think it s very worthwhile.

I have also been shopping for a nice, affordable inch pound digital torque wrench with high accuracy that can have a spinner knob installed on the handle and used for this very testing....as well as testing the preloads on the differential bearings.

I just found one 30 minutes ago that I REALLY like and another alternate that is a bit more expensive.

http://www.tpms.com/OTC_Tools_Electronic_Torque_Wrench_TPMS_p/OTC.3833.25.htm

This wrench has a 12-106 inch points slide bar, has visible and audible warning alarm, reading memory a slew of other details and accuracy of +/- 2%...which is excellent.

Mounting a spinner knob midway on the metal handle would allow using it in place of the torque sensor used for testing bearing preload fr transmissions and front and rear wheels. i wwould have to rig up a socket clamp to allow fitting to the wheel.
$169 is a bargain!

Also be sure you are not sensing/feeling flexing of the brake hub or movement between hub and stub.
Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ray for a very complete answer!

The side Ive just changed bearings at now have zero play so I think I go for a change at the other side too.


/Lars S
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
Thanks Ray for a very complete answer!

The side Ive just changed bearings at now have zero play so I think I go for a change at the other side too.


/Lars S


Yes, that can be the direct cause of the problem...if the bearings are actually worn.

Usually the inner spacers should never wear because there should be little or no slip....but the wear comes from previous owners who either over or under torque for preload...or running long distances on worn bearings that allows the spacer to sliop.

One thing that is good to do is run the bearings in after adjustment for 30-50 miles. Then re-check for movement and re-adjust preload. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After tightening the center nut to right spec the play almost disappeared, just a minimal tiny play left.
However the play can only be felt when rocking the wheel at 12 - 6 o'clock position, not when rocking 9 - 3, why?

(Also before tightening the play was much more noticable at 12 - 6 o'clock.)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it cant be felt at 3 and 9 or just to either side of those quadrants, rotate the wheel 90° and try again. This will make sure you are not teel8ng mkvement between brake hub and stub axle...which you shouldnt be able to because of the lug bolts....but sometimes small warpage of the flat area of the brake brake drum can cause some flex.

I would suspect that you have some stretch of the bore that the out race resides in either in the outer bearing cover or in the bore that is part of the trailing arm.

If you remove the outer cover, see if the race can be turned by hand in the trailing arm housing. Then if you remove the race, see how tight its fit is in the recess in the bearing outer cover. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried rotating the wheel but the play remains only at 12 - 6 will check the outer bearing/housing.

Thanks Ray!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
If it cant be felt at 3 and 9 or just to either side of those quadrants, rotate the wheel 90° and try again. This will make sure you are not teel8ng mkvement between brake hub and stub axle...which you shouldnt be able to because of the lug bolts....but sometimes small warpage of the flat area of the brake brake drum can cause some flex.

I would suspect that you have some stretch of the bore that the out race resides in either in the outer bearing cover or in the bore that is part of the trailing arm.

If you remove the outer cover, see if the race can be turned by hand in the trailing arm housing. Then if you remove the race, see how tight its fit is in the recess in the bearing outer cover. Ray


Checked the outer bearing, the outer cover comes off easy but the outer race seems to sit tight in its housing.
Could I just change the outer bearing and let the inner remain since there is noise just a small play?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
If it cant be felt at 3 and 9 or just to either side of those quadrants, rotate the wheel 90° and try again. This will make sure you are not teel8ng mkvement between brake hub and stub axle...which you shouldnt be able to because of the lug bolts....but sometimes small warpage of the flat area of the brake brake drum can cause some flex.

I would suspect that you have some stretch of the bore that the out race resides in either in the outer bearing cover or in the bore that is part of the trailing arm.

If you remove the outer cover, see if the race can be turned by hand in the trailing arm housing. Then if you remove the race, see how tight its fit is in the recess in the bearing outer cover. Ray


Checked the outer bearing, the outer cover comes off easy but the outer race seems to sit tight in its housing.
Could I just change the outer bearing and let the inner remain since there is noise just a small play?

Lars S


If the outside outer race ....the big ring...is tight in its bore then the issue is most probably a little bit of slack between the spacer and the two bearings.

Changing the bearing out could change that and improve it.

Are you saying there is noise like a noisey bearing? Or no noise just small play?

There also could be gap between the outer cover and the large inner race ring allowing the race to move in and out. But this should not be the case or an issue if the race is in fact tight in the bore....or else it would be a problem on the inner race as well.

I would try just a little more preload first just to see if its variance in the torque wrench. Also ...especially in cold weather the .25 ft/lbs of rotational torque is almost impossible to accurately gauge.

I wwould be careful putting a bearing with a race that has already been run with another bearing...but if the bearing and race are both under 50 miles they should not have worn in yet. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

If the outside outer race ....the big ring...is tight in its bore then the issue is most probably a little bit of slack between the spacer and the two bearings.

Changing the bearing out could change that and improve it.

Are you saying there is noise like a noisey bearing? Or no noise just small play?



Thanks Ray!
There is no noise just a little play on this side (which is the side I have not changed the bearings at). The other side where I just changed inner and outer beraing is O.K.

raygreenwood wrote:


I wwould be careful putting a bearing with a race that has already been run with another bearing...but if the bearing and race are both under 50 miles they should not have worn in yet. Ray


I intend to change both the outer bearing and the outer race i.e the complete outer bearing (on this side I have not changed anything yet, just discovered a minor play). My hope is that I get rid of the play without having to change the inner bearing (which was a BIG P.I.T.A). If it dont work out I can go further an change also the inner one, right?


/Lars s
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

If the outside outer race ....the big ring...is tight in its bore then the issue is most probably a little bit of slack between the spacer and the two bearings.

Changing the bearing out could change that and improve it.

Are you saying there is noise like a noisey bearing? Or no noise just small play?



Thanks Ray!
There is no noise just a little play on this side (which is the side I have not changed the bearings at). The other side where I just changed inner and outer beraing is O.K.

raygreenwood wrote:


I wwould be careful putting a bearing with a race that has already been run with another bearing...but if the bearing and race are both under 50 miles they should not have worn in yet. Ray


I intend to change both the outer bearing and the outer race i.e the complete outer bearing (on this side I have not changed anything yet, just discovered a minor play). My hope is that I get rid of the play without having to change the inner bearing (which was a BIG P.I.T.A). If it dont work out I can go further an change also the inner one, right?


/Lars s


Yes you ard on the right track. You might also check your spare parts and see if you have another spacer.

It can get into a lot of changing parts searching for the exact right spacing to not have to end up putting too much torque on the center bolt to get "0" play.

It has always been this way with the rear end of the type 4. What I started doing is taking my spare bearings along with the races I was going to pair them with.....put them together dry and clean and measure the height they produce together on a flat surface.

From my notes I found that usually it was a difference in machining the big race ring.....usually never more than .001".....usually less than that....but some differences.
When they are new....never been run together....you can swap races around without issue to get different tolerances. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

If the outside outer race ....the big ring...is tight in its bore then the issue is most probably a little bit of slack between the spacer and the two bearings.

Changing the bearing out could change that and improve it.

Are you saying there is noise like a noisey bearing? Or no noise just small play?



Thanks Ray!
There is no noise just a little play on this side (which is the side I have not changed the bearings at). The other side where I just changed inner and outer beraing is O.K.

raygreenwood wrote:


I wwould be careful putting a bearing with a race that has already been run with another bearing...but if the bearing and race are both under 50 miles they should not have worn in yet. Ray


I intend to change both the outer bearing and the outer race i.e the complete outer bearing (on this side I have not changed anything yet, just discovered a minor play). My hope is that I get rid of the play without having to change the inner bearing (which was a BIG P.I.T.A). If it dont work out I can go further an change also the inner one, right?


/Lars s


Yes you ard on the right track. You might also check your spare parts and see if you have another spacer.

It can get into a lot of changing parts searching for the exact right spacing to not have to end up putting too much torque on the center bolt to get "0" play.

It has always been this way with the rear end of the type 4. What I started doing is taking my spare bearings along with the races I was going to pair them with.....put them together dry and clean and measure the height they produce together on a flat surface.

From my notes I found that usually it was a difference in machining the big race ring.....usually never more than .001".....usually less than that....but some differences.
When they are new....never been run together....you can swap races around without issue to get different tolerances. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again Ray!
Measured my extra spacer and could not read any difference with the digital vernier compared to the spacer I use. Might be good news since they are hardly overtorqued to exactly the same extent.

Outer race came out by a couple of firm nocks by the pullhammer....just waiting for the NOS SKF bearing to arrive .


Lars s
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