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cweiland
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 Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: NIKSICA cylinders? |
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While researching the astronomical price of Nikasil-lined cylinders, I came across these "NIKSICA"-lined cylinders from QSC:
http://www.qscusa.com/collections/cylinders-piston...inders-set
I searched "NIKSICA" here and just straight Google and found nothing but "Did you mean NIKASIL?" Has anyone tried these or have ANY info on this coating? The price is obviously super attractive when compared to nickies. Even if the coating didn't do anything for you, would the aluminum cooling fins help enough to make it worth a shot?
All info and criticism welcome. There can't be any real way that nobody but me has ever heard of these things. I must have missed something huge, right?
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jsturtlebuggy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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There is a very long story about the Chinese copies of Nikies.
If you do a search on here and Shop Talk Forums you may find some answer to your questions.
You may want to find out what kind of warranty they have.
My own dealings with QSC is they have your money and you have their part that does not work.
Good luck.
Quality cost money, how much do you want to spend to find out buying cheap parts that don't work.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Also...there is no question as to whether the coating works. Its also not a simple coating that can be scratched off. Its a sintered plating.
Virtually 100% of all modern engines use similar types of treatment. The articles out there on Ford and GM coatings illustrate an extremely high tech industry.
VW/Audi, Mercedes and BMW also have proprietary variants of cylinder lining.
All or most of these coatings are specially sintered, some are sputter plated. They have very involved honing processes and very careful surface profiling and QC.
These modern coatings are THE primary reason why modern engines run so well and virtually all last well into 200K+ miles easily if well cared for. Synthetic oil is the secondary reason.
The original forerunner of modern high performance cylinder plating's were in some of the 12 cylinder aircraft engines in WWII. Ray |
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cweiland
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Location: Under an oil dripper in Lubbock...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I wish this particular product had some actual usage feedback. I'll check out the Chinese Nickies talk.
Still, I'm liking that there are alternatives, even if the bugs aren't all worked out yet. After all, AA P/Cs had lots of probs at first and seem to be a reasonable choice now.
I'd like to think that technology has come far enough to allow a repeatable build of a reliable 200+hp Type 1 that would last for well over 100k miles. I know. Go ahead and scoff, if you like. However, for an engine that was designed 80ish years ago, I feel like inexpensive upgrades shouldn't be totally out of reach.
I suppose I'll be reading up on how people who can afford real Nickies feel about their performance and longevity.
Keep up the comments. I still want to know if there are any lined aluminum cylinders worth anything out there that don't cost $900+ per hole.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cweiland wrote: |
Interesting. I wish this particular product had some actual usage feedback. I'll check out the Chinese Nickies talk.
Still, I'm liking that there are alternatives, even if the bugs aren't all worked out yet. After all, AA P/Cs had lots of probs at first and seem to be a reasonable choice now.
I'd like to think that technology has come far enough to allow a repeatable build of a reliable 200+hp Type 1 that would last for well over 100k miles. I know. Go ahead and scoff, if you like. However, for an engine that was designed 80ish years ago, I feel like inexpensive upgrades shouldn't be totally out of reach.
I suppose I'll be reading up on how people who can afford real Nickies feel about their performance and longevity.
Keep up the comments. I still want to know if there are any lined aluminum cylinders worth anything out there that don't cost $900+ per hole. |
I, would take a look at Jake Raby's site on facebook, L&N engineering etc. For feedback. They do not just make Nickies for VW. They make them for Porsche 911 and for Aircraft as well.
Its not that its not technologically possible to do what you want for the ACVW.....its just that the volume opportunity to make it affordable is not there.
Its an expensivd process. There are no automation based cost savings to be had....only vol7me based discounts.
The original 911 Porsche cylinders used Nikisil linings. This, is why they are so expensive and typically....when well cared for ....last 300k miles. What that means increality is that the cylinders outlast the heads, pistons, bearings and valves.
You would only do a light rehone and maybe a re ring (or not) at 125k miles when you do a valve job.
At 200k it may be time for new pistons, rings and valves...woth just another light re hone of cylinders.
These same modern coating enhancements are expensive for modern cars as well. Destroy an engine for say a mid 2000's up car....and look at the price for a "factory" long block. ...and for most VW watercooled.....not a rebuild.....you are looking at $8-12k. There is a lot of technology and cost on these engines. From nikisil linings, very tight balance, ion nitrided cam and lifter surfaces etc.
The only way they can afford to offer this level of technology is through the bulk discount, of manufacturing and selling hundreds of thousands if not millions of vehicles.
Its expensive. ...and most in the acvw community want it to cheap when they want it...and dont want to be part of the "paying for the tooling" cost structure. You just cant have it both ways.
Yes....the Chinese can produce these parts. The issue....last I read up on it....was that many sets of cylinders out of ten......did not have the basics like lack of taper, roundness etc.....not to mention issues with the plating. Also, the piston to cylinder tolerances are different by necessity between a nickisil and plain cast iron cylinder and there have been issues there as well.
Much cheaper than nickies....yes.....but still 3-4x higher than a basic set of cylinders.
Some things may never get cheaper at todays volume. Ray |
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cweiland
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Location: Under an oil dripper in Lubbock...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Ray.
That's some solid info. I believe that I'll be saving my pennies and continuing to do the research. Maybe I'll one day be in the Nickies club. I just can't bring myself to go Subaru to gain power and reliability over the longhaul.
Must. Stay. Air. Cooled....
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Multi69s
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cweiland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Just read countless pages on the Chinese Nikasil versus the top-of-the-line LN Engineering Nickies.
While I agree that LN's are prob the best quality and, as a bonus, your dollars spent stay Stateside, I still don't see much on the actual use of the Chinese knock-offs.
We've heard the argument from the 300+hp, lasts-forever folks. How about the other side? I don't mean the "free-trade, competition is healthy, can't afford the Nickies" crowd. I agree that competition to further research and ultimately lower prices. However, has ANYONE that has actually used these QSC cylinders? Did they crack, leak, smear the coating off after 500 miles, last a week?
I get that LN's are superior, but that is not the issue at hand. My question remains: Are these Chinese Nickies worth the <$500 per set when compared to standard cast iron cylinders? That is the entirety of my inquiry.
I am not talking about a 400HP, 4 bar boosted, race gas, Siberian wasteland crosser, Type 4 monster. Just a 2110cc or so, 150ish hp, daily driver, Type 1, pump gas plant that I can trust on the highway.
Let's not speculate on what could or might happen, just what has. I'm having an incredibly difficult time finding feedback from folks that have actually used these products recently for any sort of mileage. If they fail, I'd like evidence as to what went wrong.
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GTV
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: |
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I'm interested as well. Are they only available in 92mm? Thick or thin wall?
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Alstrup
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Well, for what itīs worth, I have used one set of these. Customer supplied. This is about 3― years ago. They only sat on the engine for one season, because they didīnt want to stay round when the engine was pushed down the Autobahn. Not even high speeds, just a normal 120-150 km/h cruise.
The customer bit the bullit and bought LNīs for the next season. And I aint seen him since 
T |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:22 am Post subject: |
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I think most of your info will be found in the STF type 4um and in Jake Raby's closed forum on the STF.
May note of who is conversing in these forums and then search here for those same people.
Then...check Rabys aircooled technology or Massive type 4 on Facebook and see if Jake transferred his thread archives to anywhere. Ray |
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[email protected]
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I have never heard of a situation where someone bought the cheap nickies and didn't regret it.
Obviously the LN ones are top tier, and you won't have a problem with those.
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Multi69s
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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cweiland,
I am going to give you my opinion, and that's all it is. I wouldn't get them. In my previous post, I said how great the wear was on the "plated" cylinders. That is if it is done correctly. There are many different plating processes, that fall in the general family. They all tend to last longer then a standard cast iron cylinder, but (and its a big one), are they using quality materials, and do they have the correct plating process down (its more of an electro-fusion). If they do not have the process, or materials right, the "plating" will actually flake away from the cylinder walls, and now you have two incompatible materials in contact with one another - massive wear.
The process itself is tried and true, but I would stay away from a manufacturer that does not have a track record with this process.
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cweiland
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Location: Under an oil dripper in Lubbock...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Alstrup, Jon@aircooled, Multi69s,
All good info, exactly what I was after.
All in all, these QSC units are really just about a $100 more than standard Cima/Mahles. In my mind, that would have been a worthwhile gamble if I was convinced that there was an advantage to be had.
However, seeing how I have heard crickets from the "satisfied with Chinese Nickies" crowd, it looks like I'll be sticking to the standard Cima/Mahles unless I win the lotto.
And, if such a strike of good fortune happens, I'd probably just have Raby build what I want and leave it to him to pick the components.
Thank you all for your constructive input.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
cweiland,
I am going to give you my opinion, and that's all it is. I wouldn't get them. In my previous post, I said how great the wear was on the "plated" cylinders. That is if it is done correctly. There are many different plating processes, that fall in the general family. They all tend to last longer then a standard cast iron cylinder, but (and its a big one), are they using quality materials, and do they have the correct plating process down (its more of an electro-fusion). If they do not have the process, or materials right, the "plating" will actually flake away from the cylinder walls, and now you have two incompatible materials in contact with one another - massive wear.
The process itself is tried and true, but I would stay away from a manufacturer that does not have a track record with this process. |
Yes....and the honing process and tolerances are critical. Ray |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
FWIW, I have never heard of a situation where someone bought the cheap nickies and didn't regret it.
Obviously the LN ones are top tier, and you won't have a problem with those. |
I would fully believe that . This issue is not that the Chinese companies can or cannot plate the material properly. Its can they do it every time.....and is your set one of the good ones or bad ones.
in reality....the cost is not enough that it is about the cost of the cylinders itself. Its about if the set you have craps out....what gets killed along with it....pumping all of the flaked off ppating through the engine, trashed rings and pistons. Thats the cost. If they were the same cost as a set of Mahles.....I would probably roll the dice. Ray |
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GTV
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| cweiland wrote: |
All in all, these QSC units are really just about a $100 more than standard Cima/Mahles.
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That's the price for the cylinders only.
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Boolean
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:15 am Post subject: |
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As I understand it, there aint no Cima Mahle cylinders anymore.
The last two sets I bought were chinese.
So you can have cheap chinese QSC or AA, or more expensive JPM, LN, Pauter, Whatever cylinders.
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madmike
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Been using these guys for years for re-plating(nickies) MX bike cylinders,,Maybe they can help?
U.S Chrome in Wi
866-922-5066
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Multi69s
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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US Chrome, Power Seal and Millennium have been doing the plating process for years, and they are all good companies. You can send them your cylinders and pistons and they can turn them into "Nickies" if you desire. You can even tell them what piston to cylinder clearance you desire, and they will come back to you better then new. However, the cost would probably be kind of prohibitive. My last dirt bike cylinder cost about $200, so it may cost around $800 to do the set. Of course, you would probably never wear out a cylinder again (if good air cleaners are used). If we lived in a world where we could just buy good quality pistons separately, it might be a viable route.
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Last edited by Multi69s on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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