Need Help with Front Suspension

[demo.2009]

Hi guys, as the title reads, I need help with my front end. Still in the early stages of planning and sourcing, but want to get a feel for what's being used, what's being manufacturely made, etc.

My setup with primarily be for street use, every so often I may take it out for a cruise.

I'm tossing around the idea of adjustable coilovers, but have been reading that a lot of people have said not to get them for the ride quality. I know, you bounce a lot because the spring is constantly compressed so it doesn't absorb a lot of the bumps. But I solely want them for the adjusting ride height purposes and don't want to deal with tweaking of the front torsion bar, etc.

I'm wanting my setup to utilize the stock 69+ beetle front suspension, but came across a double A arm front suspension from Eyeball Engineering. Comes with coilovers, might give it a shot if it would be worth it?

Also, plan is to use performance (drilled/slotted) disc brakes all the way around, also looking to use the Porsche 930 5x130 lug pattern, don't know if this information is helpful, but it's so you guys know all the information and can base your opinions off that.

Like I said, just kind of feeling what's out there what's being used what people like. Just for reference it's going to be a street buggy, will not see sand or off road usage.

Thanks in advance

[jspbtown]

I guess it depends on your budget.

If its basically limitless then sure..cough up the $3000 for the front end. Personally I would dump that into motor/tranny/brakes but that's just my opinion.

Front coil overs won't help you with ride quality or ride height. They won't help you at all.

Get some beam adjusters, consider taking out some leafs if you really think you need to after building it, and use the correct tire pressure. Its really that simple.

So, outside of spending $3k for a front end you are rather limited in what you can do. The best part about a VW front end is that you can build it with the adjusters, use the right tire pressure & use the right shocks and go drive it. It might just be perfect for you. If not...spend a couple of hours pulling some leaves. Still not right? OK...4 bolts and out it comes.

[demo.2009]

[nightmanx11]

The following quote pretty much answers your front end question: "I guess it depends on your budget.

If its basically limitless then sure..cough up the $3000 for the front end. Personally I would dump that into motor/tranny/brakes but that's just my opinion.

Front coil overs won't help you with ride quality or ride height. They won't help you at all.

Get some beam adjusters, consider taking out some leafs if you really think you need to after building it, and use the correct tire pressure. Its really that simple.

So, outside of spending $3k for a front end you are rather limited in what you can do. The best part about a VW front end is that you can build it with the adjusters, use the right tire pressure & use the right shocks and go drive it. It might just be perfect for you. If not...spend a couple of hours pulling some leaves. Still not right? OK...4 bolts and out it comes."

I would also not get in the habit of asking for help and then arguing with the answers you receive. You might not like the answer, but remember you are the on who asked the question.

I have been doing vws & buggies since the late 1960, and have never seen an application of coil over shocks that even came close to working correctly. If you figure out the correct balance of adjustment to the front suspension, when using the correct shocks, and the reduced tire pressure you will find that all is well.

You may also have to play with tire sizes to get it perfect. 1.5" spacing between the tire & the fender is not very much, and you will most likely find the tires rubbing on the fender when you encounter pot holes and on decelerating turns.

[manxdavid]

So many folks start out building buggies thinking they need all of the fancy stuff that they see in the magazines, on websites and on other types of show VWs when 95%+ of buggies are quite happy running around on stock VW brakes, suspension, trannys etc. Remember,the guys selling this stuff are salesmen often on minimum wage, many can't even afford cars let alone know anything about what they're selling.

To got the stance that you want a stock VW front end with Sway a Way adjusters and shorter oil shocks or drop spindles and standard shocks will work fine, as will regular drum brakes if in good order, as a buggy is way lighter than a regular steel bodied car.

I've seen some appalling engineering on top $$$ wishbone set-ups, one of which caused a front wheel, hub etc. to shear of at speed, not nice! I'll put my trust in VW every time!

[GS guy]

jspbtown is right on the mark. Budget is the limting factor. Using the "adjustable coli-over" description is a bit ambiguous - at least in the VW world. Typically it means a true coil-over shock with adjustabel spring seats and usually adjustable dampening too. Figure about $200 each (minimum) plus the spring cost. A little hard to find these small enough for the BJ front end, but they're out there if you research hard enough.

Then there are the "Empi" style "coil overs" - a cheap shock and spring set-up similar to motorcycle rear shocks from the 70's. What are these, around $50/set? Poor dampening and you definitely don't need any more spring rate up front!

What were you planning on doing with the torsion bars after adding the extra spring stiffness of the coil-overs?

The basic BJ beam package is hard to beat when set up correctly. Otherwise, you can step up to a true A-Arm coil-over front end conversion - but shop carefully! A few options for this as well.
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70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS!

[manxdavid]

My Manx 2 running stock front end with Sway a Ways and shorter Bugpack shocks...nice stance???

[ammocan]

I have seen every type of car from 10 sec drag beetle to a single purpose off road buggy use the stock torsion suspension and like it. The difference is always in the setup. The drag beetle cut 2 inches off each side of the front end which stiffened the torsion springs quite a bit then installed adjusters and used them to lower the front end. An off road machine would use adjusters to raise the front end cut off the bump stops and lower the tire pressure.

I have also seen a street car that was raced in auto cross which was lowered and one of the spring packs removed and replaced with a straight torsion bar to help keep the car level.

All of these set ups still used the oil filled shocks. The point is spend your $3000 on something else. The stock suspension is so versatile and adjustable there really isnt a good reason to spend that kind of money on your front end.
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skill comes by the constant repetition of familiar feats, not by one over bold attempt at a feat for which the doer is yet poorly prepared

[Iguana]

[andygere]

You can buy a stock type VW ball joint beam with the adjusters already installed for a little over $300. Just bolt it on and set the stance you want. To me, that seems like the easiest way to get what you are looking for, and for not too much money.

[manxdavid]

If you are tempted to run coil-overs with a stock style beam, just remember that VW only designed it to support the top of a damper, not to hold the whole suspension up. A good condition OEM beam will be fine but the metal thickness and welding on newer replacement parts can be very poor and will need careful checking.

[BL3Manx]

[jspbtown]

Iguna...would love to see a shot of your front suspension set up using coil overs and the stock front beam.

And also how you deal with the torsion leaves and the upper shock mounts on the stock front ends?

Pics, part numbers, assembly hints would be great!

[EVfun]

[Dale M.]

If you can not make it handle with adjustable beams in front and ball joints, or possibly lowering spindles, and few leaves removed from front torsion stack plus rear anti-sway bar, car is not ever going to handle.....Front end has no weight (maybe 500 lbs of your 1600 pound car), all you can possible do is prevent a lot of understeer and a $3000 front assembly is probably not going to do it..... IF you are building a $40,000 show buggy go for it.......

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Front-Axle-Beam-1966-77-Type-1-OEM-VW-p/113-401-021doem-adj.htm

For disk brakes..
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/2-1-2-Drop-Spindles-Ball-Joint-Discs-p/lowered-spindles-bj-disc.htm

For drum brakes...
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Forged-2-1-2-Drop-Spi...j-drum.htm

And use plain "oil" shocks, gas shocks just push front up and makes stance look goofy...

And no you don't need disk brakes on front most of your braking is on rear where about 65% (+) of your weight is...

Also keep in mind, front shock towers (or rear) were never intended to take full weight of car.... They will need to be reinforced IF you go coil overs...

Dale
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[HeidelbergJohn4.0]

[jspbtown]

[EVfun]

Which is why I wrote what I did. The OP mentioned wanting to leave the front suspension stock. Adding coilovers would be going the wrong direction.

I agree, as a part of a complete rework they could be used successfully. So could one of the double A arm kits. I think stock with adjusters, and perhaps a few torsion leaves missing, will do fine on the street and maintained trails.
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[jsturtlebuggy]

You might want to look at www.mendeolasuspension.com
Kevin has a complete chassis setup that is A arm front and adjustable coil over suspension at both front and rear.

Using coil overs are not cheap. I have around $1,000.00 in 2 front Fox shocks on my buggy.
You may also want to look into getting a nitrogen bottle setup (with gauge and hose) so you can fill your own shocks. Checking the pressure is something you have to do for shocks to work properly.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[streetbuggy8804]

I had a lot of problems with getting my front end right. Turns out the beam adjusters with a couple leaves removed and stock shocks did the trick. I originally started with a pair of gr2's and it was just plain scary to drive. The gr2's were for a lowered ball joint front and they did not provide near enough suspension travel. Go with stock shocks at stock length, you will be very happy.