Fuel injection or carbs?

[skinraptor]

I'm having trouble with my f.i. 77 bug My question is should I repair the f.i. or ditch it for a carb? I'm gonna build a performance engine at some point. If I switch to carbs is there some carbs that work on the stock motor and a mild build or am I gonna need different carb for each build? I have no problem going to dual carbs I would prefer it if I have too purchase carb or carbs. Thanks

[GTV]

Depends on how wild of an engine you want to build. Smaller carbs will work on your stock engine as well as a mild performance engine.
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[HRVW]

Removing all of the FI means a need for a different intake manifold, Carb, Fuel pump.

Taking this into consideration and the prices involved look at the difference on how much more $$$ (difference in Cost) would be needed for a set of Duals.....better for a Dual setup as the Fuel pump will be needed ether way.

[skinraptor]

Thanks guys! What size duals should I looks at? I just want a mild street performer for now. If I build a real hotrod motor I'll have to step up to some big dual carbs.

[bluebus86]

the FI system Is good when it runs, I run a D-jet in 914,s I think the bug used more like an L-jet system (the 914 1.8 liter cars used L-jet, the 1.7 and 2.0 cars used D-jet)

at anyrate it likely is better to get your old FI system in top shape rather than convert to something else. After all it does run, just runs poorly, so maybe something is wrong and is an easy fix. I know the L-jets are very sensitive to vacuum leaks on the 914 1.8 cars, even a leaky oil filler cap will cause bad running. so check all the hoses and seals. make sure al the wires are good, nice connections, a bottle of injector cleaner is prudent every now and then, also if you want check the spray pattern if bad replace or have them cleaned. the air meter box is sensitive, and needs to be treated with care. some place may rebuild them if yours tested bad. you also have some temp sensors that have to work right for correct mixture control and they are easy to test.

Of course also make sure the timing and spark are right.

why don't you post the problems you are having with the FI and see if you can get some help fixing it? You may have good luck on this forum or maybe better still on the late Bug forum, I don't know where the Stock FI guys hang out the most. You may also get some help on the injected air cooled Bus page, as I think they used a similar system to the Bug. The square back (TypeIII) system is not the same, it is more like the 914 D-jet (infact it is D-jet) D-jet is based on a pressure sensor, measuring manifold vacuum, the L-jet and most other later injection systems are based on an air flow meter. Temperature sensors help with cold enrichment and act like a choke would on a carb. it is pretty basic. and that makes it easy to trouble shoot.

going to carbs or other injection opens a new can of worms. You then have to deal with sloppy linkages, sycronizing the carbs, maybe cutting the side engine bay panels to allow access to the spark plugs, and carb adjustment screws (you replace the spark plugs and make tuning adjustments thru the wheel well!)
Also you wont pass most smog tests with dual carbs, may make the car almost unsellable later.

So give a repair a try, what is it doing and what have you done????
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[regal beagal]

Stock fuel injection was never good.everything leaks even brand new.

[Dale M.]

Use existing hardware coupled with new electronics/ECU ?.. It is EFI now isn't it, or is if full mechanical ... Dont know a lot about early VW injection...

Want decent dual carbs, get HPMX 40's.... Can actually be used on a 1600, and be re-jetted and would feed a 1800/1900cc (plus) motor in future.

Dale
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[GTV]

[raygreenwood]

[Randy in Maine]

[raygreenwood]

[busdaddy]

[HRVW]

Back in the late 70's when I first started Racing bought Weber 40's and then jumped to 48IDA and then to TURBO...never looked back.

Consider the price on the Duals (Webers) as the jetting is the same as you can go down today and up if a larger engine comes to mind tomorrow...just a thought from someone who has been there.

[clonebug]

You could buy new CB FI intakes and a MS ECU and keep fuel injection.

Price a new set of carbs, linkages and quality filters with tops plus add the tuning costs for all the jets.
Next price a MS ECU Fuel injection setup and compare.

If you get a set of 32# injectors you will be good all the way to 230 plus HP.
They will idle fine on a stock engine and leave plenty of room for engine growth.

I did my injection system for about $1350.00 which also included crank fired ignition and a wideband.
If you know how to look for used parts and do some fabrication you can do the same.
You can even keep your stock fuel pump and filter system along with your regulator.
That will save a fair amount of money.
You will never have to rejet or pull a carb again.

I suggest a

MS-2
relay board
Marios hidden crank trigger on an aluminum pulley of your choice.
Subaru wasted spark coil pack
Use your plenum and throttle body
CB FI endpieces and fuel rails
Mario's injector holders
Stock Bug regulator
Stock bug pump and filter setup with pressure and return lines
Locate some Bosch 19-32# injectors from junk yard.
Gm sensors from Mario
Harness from Mario

A little work putting it all together and find a cheap laptop and you are ready to go.
You can even tune on an Android phone or tablet via bluetooth if you want but you don't get autotune.



Oh.....where in Washington are you???
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[skinraptor]

Thanks for all the replies! I'm very interested in keeping the f.i. over going to carbs, I had just heard all bad about it until I posted this. Clonebug I'm gonna look into the setup you posted. Thanks


I'm located in Allyn a small town outside of Belfair. How about you? I'm looking for a club or something to join if you know of a good one.

[VWCOOL]

Standard, the factory EFI is a lovely, simple, smooth system... so find out what is wrong with it...don't listen to the clunkheads!

Later... why not try the factory EFI with a performance motor?

With tweaks to fuel pressure, throttle body bypass/ idle air bleeds etc, I'm confident a factory EFI system can be 'tricked' into running an engine with greater power; I remember reading about a few Bosch L-Jet cars with some wild mods in the 1980s

I have an ex-USA Cabriolet and I'm going to try, based on the experience of one mate here in Australia that ran a cammed 1776 under VW EFI and someone on here who claimed good results with a 1916...

[skinraptor]

I'm all about keeping f.i. its far superior to running carbs as far as technology. I had just heard all bad about it....I'm looking into clonebug's recipe so most likely to try that but I have a ton of ????s for him but I'm gonna read up before I waste his time with a bunch of dumb questions.

[clonebug]

I'm north of Bellingham.

Www.thedubshop.net has a lot of stuff built and ready for sale which does raise the price somewhat. He is somewhat local to all of us and is in Monroe.
If you know how to solder you can build the ecu and relay board yourself.
There are many options so do some reading and research and you can go from there.
There are a few of us in Washington running MS FI and some are at the local cars shows.
My setup is turbo so it's a little more complicated but it really is a nice system since I can make any change I want and can tune it from the drivers seat.
Once it's tuned you can unplug the laptop no one knows you have something different.
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[Dale M.]

Go to Bowling and Grippo site on MS read a lot... Learn the theory, then figure out what you want to do....

http://www.megamanual.com/MSFAQ.htm

This is a place to start....You probably can convert most of your mechanical hardware to new electronics....

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[raul arrese]

We need to do a study and investigate why some vw guys still will argue how carbs are better than F.I. ?? And its only vw air cooled guys ... no other car guys like Honda , mazda , Toyota , not even the water cooled vw guys want carbs ???
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