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GTV
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Joined: March 27, 2004
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Location: Si'ahl
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 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: |
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If it's between a stock Solex or stock fuel injection, I'll have the fuel injection. If it's between stock fuel injection and dual two barrel carbs, I'll have the carbs.
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Boolean
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Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| raul arrese wrote: |
| We need to do a study and investigate why some vw guys still will argue how carbs are better than F.I. ?? And its only vw air cooled guys ... no other car guys like Honda , mazda , Toyota , not even the water cooled vw guys want carbs ??? |
Looking for that "like" button again...
But to be honest, many enthusiastic owners of vintage cars are the same.
They are also prone to thinking that older oil technology is better than what we have today.
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raul arrese
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Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Boolean wrote: |
| raul arrese wrote: |
| We need to do a study and investigate why some vw guys still will argue how carbs are better than F.I. ?? And its only vw air cooled guys ... no other car guys like Honda , mazda , Toyota , not even the water cooled vw guys want carbs ??? |
Looking for that "like" button again...
But to be honest, many enthusiastic owners of vintage cars are the same.
They are also prone to thinking that older oil technology is better than what we have today. |
well maybe a guy with an Alfa that came with factory side drafts or a Maserati bi-turbo that was a factory blow thr carb ..
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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The big issue I would like to point out on the FI vs Carbs debate is that most folks think that buying a FI system is going to automatically make them know how to tune too. 
Just because you can change settings on a map, doesn't mean you know what the hell you are doing. In many cases it just makes it easier and faster to screw things up.
You can find many threads where some guy spends $2-4k on a FI system, and then is just a clueless as they were when they had IDFs/DRLAs. If not worse.
At least the basic operation of carburetor(s) is mechanical and simple, though tuning is more complex than "basic theory".
And you don't make more power with FI. Carbs are not "all that", but they are not as bad as the FI proponents make them out to be.
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
The big issue I would like to point out on the FI vs Carbs debate is that most folks think that buying a FI system is going to automatically make them know how to tune too.
Just because you can change settings on a map, doesn't mean you know what the hell you are doing. In many cases it just makes it easier and faster to screw things up.
You can find many threads where some guy spends $2-4k on a FI system, and then is just a clueless as they were when they had IDFs/DRLAs. If not worse.
At least the basic operation of carburetor(s) is mechanical and simple, though tuning is more complex than "basic theory".
And you don't make more power with FI. Carbs are not "all that", but they are not as bad as the FI proponents make them out to be. |
Yes but there is a boat load of people that will adamantly recommend using carbs and will stay with them, BUT CAN NOT TUNE THEM EITHER....
Carbs are just more forgiving ... Because of less precision (where the efficiency starts) .... How may threads on "how do I tune these *&^%%$# carbs I have" do you find here?????
EFI is the present and the future, but not for people who refuse to learn....
Dale
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Last edited by Dale M. on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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clonebug
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: |
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That is a valid point but you can also say that anyone that is 50 yrs old and younger more than likely have as much or more experience on computers than carbs.
Tuning EFI to the ragged edge might be difficult but getting an engine to run as good or better than carb systems isn't.
You are still going to have to work at it and do your research but with auto tune you get a pretty nice running engine in short order.
You certainly can't just bolt it on and expect it to work.
I'm happy with my setup but I'm sure there are others out there that aren't.
Rats nest wiring and poor connections can mess up a OEM car.
Ask GM about that.
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| clonebug wrote: |
That is a valid point but you can also say that anyone that is 50 yrs old and younger more than likely have as much or more experience on computers than carbs.
Tuning EFI to the ragged edge might be difficult but getting an engine to run as good or better than carb systems isn't.
You are still going to have to work at it and do your research but with auto tune you get a pretty nice running engine in short order.
You certainly can't just bolt it on and expect it to work.
I'm happy with my setup but I'm sure there are others out there that aren't.
Rats nest wiring and poor connections can mess up a OEM car.
Ask GM about that. |
What's this 50 year old crap.... I am 70 and still moving forward.... Got first car in early 60's and first computer in 1984 (Atari 800) ....
And yes EFI requires quality parts and good installing techniques/skills....
If you are going to build a EFI system first thing to do is go out to shop and throw away those $5 autoparts bargain crimpers and get quality ratcheting crimper with interchangeable crimp dies...
Dale
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gprudenciop
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Joined: July 06, 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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crimpers are the devil! 
iron and heat shrink for the win!!!
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| clonebug wrote: |
That is a valid point but you can also say that anyone that is 50 yrs old and younger more than likely have as much or more experience on computers than carbs.
Tuning EFI to the ragged edge might be difficult but getting an engine to run as good or better than carb systems isn't.
You are still going to have to work at it and do your research but with auto tune you get a pretty nice running engine in short order.
You certainly can't just bolt it on and expect it to work.
I'm happy with my setup but I'm sure there are others out there that aren't.
Rats nest wiring and poor connections can mess up a OEM car.
Ask GM about that. |
Im 51. I started with injection...moved to carbs...realized how NOT...they are and moved back to injection never to look back.
I know lots of people just like me. I think age has nothing to do with it. Its just lazy.
I have friends who think EFI sucks.....too hard to work with. I go to their house....the Tivo and their computers are all programmed and up to date.....and they are sporting a new S5 with a boatload of apps.....and rockin and posting pics on the forum 5 days a week.
Gee.....technology is not that hard...when you apply yourself.
Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raul arrese
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Joined: July 23, 2006
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Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| clonebug wrote: |
That is a valid point but you can also say that anyone that is 50 yrs old and younger more than likely have as much or more experience on computers than carbs.
Tuning EFI to the ragged edge might be difficult but getting an engine to run as good or better than carb systems isn't.
You are still going to have to work at it and do your research but with auto tune you get a pretty nice running engine in short order.
You certainly can't just bolt it on and expect it to work.
I'm happy with my setup but I'm sure there are others out there that aren't.
Rats nest wiring and poor connections can mess up a OEM car.
Ask GM about that. |
Im 51. I started with injection...moved to carbs...realized how NOT...they are and mkved back to injectioj never to look back.
I know lots of people just like me. I think age has nothing to do with it. Its just lazy.
I have friends who think EFI sucks.....to hard to work with. I go to their house....the Tivo and yheir computers are all programmed and up to date.....and they are sporting a new S5 with a boatload of apps.....and rockin and postiny pics on the forum 5 days a week.
Gee.....technology is not that hard...when you apply yourself.
Ray |
You go boy !!!! good job
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
crimpers are the devil!
iron and heat shrink for the win!!! |
Oh...yeah!...just like not one single production EFI system has ever done.....awesome! 
Solder is for engineers and garage queens. Ray |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
crimpers are the devil!
iron and heat shrink for the win!!! |
Ironically today almost nothing uses solder connections on wire looms..... About only place solder is uses is to secure components to printed circuit boards....
Properly done crimp connector is easy, if you want to take the time to learn how.....
Dale
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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Boolean
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Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| raul arrese wrote: |
| Boolean wrote: |
| raul arrese wrote: |
| We need to do a study and investigate why some vw guys still will argue how carbs are better than F.I. ?? And its only vw air cooled guys ... no other car guys like Honda , mazda , Toyota , not even the water cooled vw guys want carbs ??? |
Looking for that "like" button again...
But to be honest, many enthusiastic owners of vintage cars are the same.
They are also prone to thinking that older oil technology is better than what we have today. |
well maybe a guy with an Alfa that came with factory side drafts or a Maserati bi-turbo that was a factory blow thr carb .. |
A Maserati Biturbo does not cut it as vintage for me. I meant like old English sportscars for example.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| gprudenciop wrote: |
crimpers are the devil!
iron and heat shrink for the win!!! |
Ironically today almost nothing uses solder connections on wire looms..... About only place solder is uses is to secure components to printed circuit boards....
Properly done crimp connector is easy, if you want to take the time to learn how.....
Dale |
Well put. There is an entire very high tech industry with qualifying and research organisations. Crimping is worlds apart better in virtually all connection aspects. If properly crimped the wire cross section is hermetically sealed with no room for oxygen and oxidization.
QC in plants with automated and semiautomatic crimping consists of sectioning, microscope inspection and electrical testing. Its a solid technological industry.
Solder is only used as you noted. ...with supported wire and component to rigid board...or alternatively in extremely small and light components that are not, subject to strain or vibration where their small mass would cause any issues....like LEDs.
Oh....and I fully agree about the GM, comment. GM wiring sucked until about 7-8 years ago. This is because they steadfastly refused to pay patents to use the best, EFI terminal design in the world...just like All other major cars companies do.
so through the late 70s, 80s and 90s...GM had no leas than abiut 20 shitty crimp connector designs trying to avoid AMP patents.....and the worst reliability for their injection systems in the world. Ray |
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Steve Arndt
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Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: |
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John has a very valid point on tuning.
It is much easier to get a carb combo around 90% tuned to it's max/best potential than EFI. Quicker, cheaper, easier.
That last 10% is where EFI shines. Most here never get their combos tuned even close to 90% perfect either way. |
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raul arrese
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Joined: July 23, 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
John has a very valid point on tuning.
It is much easier to get a carb combo around 90% tuned to it's max/best potential than EFI. Quicker, cheaper, easier.
That last 10% is where EFI shines. Most here never get their combos tuned even close to 90% perfect either way. |
Im with you exactly Steve but I still think its more than 10 % No carb guy here reaches into his window and just cranks and starts his car , they have to pump and pump and wait till it warms up .. I just turn the key and it runs , you can never get the progression perfect on a carb , its very easy to do on F.I. , I wont argue max power as long as we are talking N.A. , but turbo any type motor you want and injection will shine !!!! there is only so much a carb can do ..
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Anvil
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Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
John has a very valid point on tuning.
It is much easier to get a carb combo around 90% tuned to it's max/best potential than EFI. Quicker, cheaper, easier.
That last 10% is where EFI shines. Most here never get their combos tuned even close to 90% perfect either way. |
While I don't doubt this is true, where I live it's hard to get carbs to work well with the altitude variations we have. Denver is 5,280. My shop is about 6,000, I can drive 10-minutes West and be at 9,500+, and it keeps going from there. Not that it can't be done with carbs, but you learn to live with compromise in a hurry. Side of the road jetting changes suck.
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skinraptor
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Location: Washington
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| I got it running. It was a bunch of janky wiring. When I build it I think i'll stick with injection like clonebug did. Thanks for the replies |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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That shows you how jacked up their tuning is. No matter how simple the task, most people will find a way to $#*) it up.
| raul arrese wrote: |
Im with you exactly Steve but I still think its more than 10 % No carb guy here reaches into his window and just cranks and starts his car , they have to pump and pump and wait till it warms up .. I just turn the key and it runs , you can never get the progression perfect on a carb , its very easy to do on F.I. , I wont argue max power as long as we are talking N.A. , but turbo any type motor you want and injection will shine !!!! there is only so much a carb can do .. |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
Standard, the factory EFI is a lovely, simple, smooth system... so find out what is wrong with it...don't listen to the clunkheads!
Later... why not try the factory EFI with a performance motor?
With tweaks to fuel pressure, throttle body bypass/ idle air bleeds etc, I'm confident a factory EFI system can be 'tricked' into running an engine with greater power; I remember reading about a few Bosch L-Jet cars with some wild mods in the 1980s
I have an ex-USA Cabriolet and I'm going to try, based on the experience of one mate here in Australia that ran a cammed 1776 under VW EFI and someone on here who claimed good results with a 1916... |
You might be able to adapt some 914 L-jet parts if you go with a bigger motor eventually, the 914 L-jet car used a 1.8 liter motor, and that L-jet could handle a big bore kit, to at least about 1900 cc.
describe the problems your having with your L-jet????
PS friend of mine had a 914 with D-jet injection, he b\put on carbs, cause that was the performance thing to do so he thought. car made more noise, worse mileage, actually was still slower than my 914, and the engine bay got all oily cause he lost the stock air cleaner crank case ventilation system. he switched back to the stock Fi and has not been happier.
My 914 D-jet runs like a top, easy to repair and trouble shoot If you cant figure out this simple Fi system, carbs might be more difficult for you. really once you understand how it works, it is really very simple.
Problems are usually poor wires easy to fix or a failed sensor, rarely is the ECU (brain) bad. Injectors can get clogged with dirt, just the same as carb jets can get clogged.
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