| Author |
Message |
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5407
Location: Holland, MI
|
 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:27 pm Post subject: Need Help Identifying These Cooling Fans / Timing Marks |
 |
|
Also have this posted in there Performance Engines and Transmissions section, but figured some guys that frequent here may know a thing or two about these blowers.
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Got three Type 4 cooling fans I need help identifying. I am particularly interested in the timing marks. The top two have cracked fan blades. The bottom one has all of its blades intact. I believe the bottom one is a bus fan based on the flat where the three bolts hold it on, and it has no timing marks cut into the aluminum perimeter. The middle one also has the flat where the three bolts hold it on like a bus fan, but it has a single red timing mark cut into the perimeter of the aluminum blower. The top one has two timing marks cut into the perimeter, and it has the earlier more aerodynamic center where the three mounting bolts seat. Im guessing it is either from a 411/412 or 914, but I am not 100% positive.
If anyone can help me identify these fans and the position of the timing marks, that would be fantastic. Thanks!
|
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The bottom one with no engraved marks most probably has marks on the pulley ring for a bus.
the one in the middle with only one red mark....I believe is a 1.8l fan from a 412.
The rop one looks like a 1.7 fan from a 914 which sometimes had a white mark for TDC that rubbed off....and an engraved 5° mark and a black or red mark for 27°btdc. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5407
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
So, the mark at far right on the top blower is 27deg BTDC, correct? The left mark is the one that is tripping me up. I have seen it labeled as TDC somewhere while searching but can't seam to dig it back up. If the left most marking is 5deg as you say, is that 5 deg ATDC for the vacuum retard?
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
From my books....that one if its a 914 1.7....supposedly that would be 5°btdc.
There were a decent amount of variations. Since timing of the 914 1.7L was 100% the same as the 411/412.....if memory serves I have also seen 914 1.7 that have only the 0 stamping and the 27 btdc.....a set up that my Haynes book says is 914 2.0 as well. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5407
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What is the 5deg BTDC mark used for on the top blower?
Also, could the mark on the middle blower be 7.5deg BTDC for the engines timed at idle?
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| According to the books I have the 5° btdc and sometimes 0 is used as a static timing mark knly when setting the engine up to run well enough to attach a strobe to it after the distributor has been pulled for any reason. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5407
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Those static timing marks will come in handy since this is a build from scratch. As for the 27deg BTDC, is that timed without the vacuum advance and retard hoses attached?
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bradself
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013
Posts: 167
Location: SF, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| Those static timing marks will come in handy since this is a build from scratch. As for the 27deg BTDC, is that timed without the vacuum advance and retard hoses attached? |
Vacuum hoses disconnected and plugged, 27^ at 3500+rpm (full mechanical advance.) Pelican Parts has a template for timing marks if your timing gun doesn't adjust for advance. In their 914 tech articles.
Iirc 7.5^ is for the LJet motor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bradself
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013
Posts: 167
Location: SF, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| And 27^ is for DJet. It's not a timing bound to displacement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would guess the top one is for the first generation carburetted 411's (68hp in 1969), they had marks for 5BTC and 32BTC, (yes they had 32 degrees full mech advance at 3500rpm) the picture is identical as the drawings found in early workshop manuals.
EDIT: The top one Cold be a D-jet one also if the left mark is 0deg (TDC) and the right 27deg.
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold
Last edited by Lars S on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5407
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the tips guys.
So,
Top blower: Djet, 27deg BTDC @ 3500rpm & Static Timing marks
Middle Blower: Ljet, 7.5deg BTDC @ idle timing mark
Bottom Blower: Bus with pulley timing notch, 5-10deg ATDC @ idle
Correct?
Now for the fun part. The bottom blower has all of its fins, the other two are missing at least one blade. I would like to transfer timing marks onto the perimeter of the bus blower to use in the 411/412 blower housing with the timing hole in the top. I have a set of factory PDSIT carbs with a vacuum advance and retard port, and a DVDA distributor. What marks would you suggest I transfer? Does the 27deg BTDC (no hoses) drop back to about 5-10deg ATDC near idle with hoses connected?
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Thanks for the tips guys.
So,
Top blower: Djet, 27deg BTDC @ 3500rpm & Static Timing marks
Middle Blower: Ljet, 7.5deg BTDC @ idle timing mark
Bottom Blower: Bus with pulley timing notch, 5-10deg ATDC @ idle
Correct?
|
My suggestion
Top 1969 carburetted 5deg static, 32deg BTC. EDIT: or D-jet 0deg (TDC) and 27deg BTC
Middle Djet 7deg static
Bottom ---
In your case I would werify the TDC (0deg) by rocking the engine around TDC and feeling the TDC trough the spark plug hole, then calculate the distance (every deg is 1/360 of the fan circuit) to the full advance point to go for and mark that out.
Below is a fan with TDC ("0") and (what I believe) 27deg markings, it seems that the positions of the fan blades compared to the timing marks are quite accurate between different fans but it is easy to verify the TDC so that it is 100% correct for your individual engine.
Sorry cant give any tip about the carb timing setup.
/Lars s
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold
Last edited by Lars S on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5407
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
What do you guys make of this?
Below looks a lot like the top blower in my picture, and suggests TDC.
Yet this picture backs up Rays suggestion of 5deg BTDC...
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
When it comes to TDC i believe the lower pucture is correct, I have found the TDC to be between the 4th and 5th blade to the right of the thick "spoke" and 7deg between the 3rd and 4th an all my engines, but as I wrote eariler it is safest (and simple) to werify.
When it comes to the 27deg marking I cant tell by memory. EDIT NO 3: The 27deg looks to far left if I count the fan blades, but the image above might not take tis in consideration.
EDIT1: The fan circuit is about 27,2" each degree is (27,2/360) 0,0755".
27deg is (27x0,0755) 2,04".
This means the 27deg mark shall be about 2,04" (52mm) from the 0deg mark.
EDIT NO 2:
The 2,04" (52mm) calculated above is about the distance of 3,7 fan blades since the fan blade distance is approx 14mm). On all my 4 D-jet engines I can verify this distance and all of them has the 27deg mark close to the first fan blade to the left (seen from the pulley side) of the thick spoke as in the picture below.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lars S wrote: |
I would guess the top one is for the first generation carburetted 411's (68hp in 1969), they had marks for 5BTC and 32BTC, (yes they had 32 degrees full mech advance at 3500rpm) the picture is identical as the drawings found in early workshop manuals.
EDIT: The top one Cold be a D-jet one also if the left mark is 0deg (TDC) and the right 27deg.
/Lars S |
Yes....the top one is most likely 914 D-jet as described by the manuals.
it "could" as you note be carbed 411.....but very unlikely on this continent. Less than a couple hundred shipped here in all. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Thanks for the tips guys.
So,
Top blower: Djet, 27deg BTDC @ 3500rpm & Static Timing marks
Middle Blower: Ljet, 7.5deg BTDC @ idle timing mark
Bottom Blower: Bus with pulley timing notch, 5-10deg ATDC @ idle
Correct?
Now for the fun part. The bottom blower has all of its fins, the other two are missing at least one blade. I would like to transfer timing marks onto the perimeter of the bus blower to use in the 411/412 blower housing with the timing hole in the top. I have a set of factory PDSIT carbs with a vacuum advance and retard port, and a DVDA distributor. What marks would you suggest I transfer? Does the 27deg BTDC (no hoses) drop back to about 5-10deg ATDC near idle with hoses connected? |
It depends on distributor and cam. The D-jet injected cars typically....most had vacuum retard and advance over here. At idle with hoses connected they should .....at factory tune. ....drop back to about 5-7 btdc if idle is correct.
Many of them dropped back to near or at 0.......Typically this will also be with idle slightly too low. Keeping idle at 900 instead of 850 will keep idle with hoses on right at 0 to 5 btdc.
The problem with doing this is that this is right at the fringes of accuracy of the small spring and weigbt of the centrifugal advance....which should kick in a hair over 1000 rpm.
It makes idle timing with hoses on.....bouncy. Many think this is timing scatter. It is not.
it is in part,advance inaccuracy.....and in large part over retarding from vacuum retarr. The two fight each other. Both can be adjusted.
D-jet in general will run...and tune....much better at a minimum of 7 btdc and actually a beat in my experience. ...of idle timing with hoses on....of about 10 btdc, throttle fully closed and small advance spring tightened accordingly and the vacuum retard stop adjusted to facilitate this.
Idle timing of 0-5 btdc with hoses on....causes large fluctuation in the vacuum signature and resulting enrichment spikes to the MPS.....without the minor adjustments I mentioned.
The carbed engines....so I just found...for 411.....had the 5 degree atdc static timing mark and a red mark at 32 btdc instead of the 27 btdc (As lars noted). The books list hoses off and 3500 rpm at the 32 degree red mark. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bradself
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013
Posts: 167
Location: SF, CA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
