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6Laytons
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Utah
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 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: Brand new battery strains to turn the motor |
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I've got the 1973 1600cc vw beetle engine in my manx that we are restoring. When I could see that the battery was really straining at starting the engine which it does after I top off the charge but with a great deal of effort and the engine turns really slowly until it fires up.
I then today purchased a brand new battery and same thing but it does a little better but still really strains to start as though it's almost an impossible task on the battery. It has a new oil change and once it starts it runs but doesn't idle very well. Big problem I'm trying to solve first is this starting problem.
Do starters when they are older tend to strain like that or do they either work or not work?
I do at times have to tap the starter solenoid to get it to start. |
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6Laytons
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Utah
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lostinbaja
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2004
Posts: 4036
Location: Frankfort, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I would bet you are using a 6v transaxle case with a 12v starter and you never installed the correct conversion bushing in the transaxle housing for the end of the starter.
The end of the starter drive on a 12v starter is smaller in diameter than a 6v starter and consequently puts the starter in a bind when it engages with the flywheel.
You can get around the problem completely by using a starter from an autostick. It is self contained and doesn't require a bushing at all.
To take it one step further....If you are in fact using a 6v transaxle case did you clearance the case for the 12v (200mm) flywheel?
_________________
Jerry...
If it's being towed, it must be a trailer!
"Vee Grow Too Soon Oldt Und Too Late Schmardt"
RIP Morgan
My photos
http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album92 |
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Letterman7
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 3198
Location: Downingtown, PA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ what he said! |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| lostinbaja wrote: |
I would bet you are using a 6v transaxle case with a 12v starter and you never installed the correct conversion bushing in the transaxle housing for the end of the starter.
The end of the starter drive on a 12v starter is smaller in diameter than a 6v starter and consequently puts the starter in a bind when it engages with the flywheel.
You can get around the problem completely by using a starter from an autostick. It is self contained and doesn't require a bushing at all.
To take it one step further....If you are in fact using a 6v transaxle case did you clearance the case for the 12v (200mm) flywheel? |
I think your right, but did you see that arc at 26 sec into the video. Better get the paint off the starter and trans. Check the ground strap |
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6Laytons
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| lostinbaja wrote: |
I would bet you are using a 6v transaxle case with a 12v starter and you never installed the correct conversion bushing in the transaxle housing for the end of the starter.
The end of the starter drive on a 12v starter is smaller in diameter than a 6v starter and consequently puts the starter in a bind when it engages with the flywheel.
You can get around the problem completely by using a starter from an autostick. It is self contained and doesn't require a bushing at all.
To take it one step further....If you are in fact using a 6v transaxle case did you clearance the case for the 12v (200mm) flywheel? |
Hmmm I don't know. What's an "autostick"? Both this engine and transmission came out of a working sandrail that I purchased from someone and I simply transferred them to the manx. The transmission and engine were the IRS setup (not the old swingarm). Also if the flywheel needed to be clearanced and wasn't wouldn't you hear a noticeable grinding noise?
Last edited by 6Laytons on Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:49 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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6Laytons
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| MacLeod Willy wrote: |
| lostinbaja wrote: |
I would bet you are using a 6v transaxle case with a 12v starter and you never installed the correct conversion bushing in the transaxle housing for the end of the starter.
The end of the starter drive on a 12v starter is smaller in diameter than a 6v starter and consequently puts the starter in a bind when it engages with the flywheel.
You can get around the problem completely by using a starter from an autostick. It is self contained and doesn't require a bushing at all.
To take it one step further....If you are in fact using a 6v transaxle case did you clearance the case for the 12v (200mm) flywheel? |
I think your right, but did you see that arc at 26 sec into the video. Better get the paint off the starter and trans. Check the ground strap |
Ok, I'll take the starter off and clean the paint off. The ground strap isn't put in quite as I'd like it yet because it's bolted correctly to the trans but the other end is held to the negative battery cable with a pair of vice grips to complete the circuit. |
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wythac
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Joined: August 02, 2004
Posts: 2791
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Do you smell a lot of raw fuel when you start it or when its parked for any length of time? You might have a little hydro lock going on...if it starts better/easier after your first start up, check to make sure your carb isn't bleeding fuel into the cylinders after shut down.
Given that you have another thread going about carb problems I think it is likely these issues are related.
Much more info in the engine forum. Your problems are not specific to a buggy. |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| 6Laytons wrote: |
| Hmmm I don't know. What's an "autostick"? Both this engine and transmission came out of a working sandrail that I purchased from someone and I simply transferred them to the manx. The transmission and engine were the IRS setup (not the old swingarm). Also if the flywheel needed to be clearanced and wasn't wouldn't you hear a noticeable grinding noise? |
Only if it ends up being a starter, definitely buy one for an auto. It is more torque and does not require the bushing. It will bolt right in |
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lil-jinx
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Joined: August 14, 2013
Posts: 1109
Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| try running a ground cable direct to the starter case, |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: |
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At this point I would pull engine out and check bell housing for scuff marks where flywheel may have contacted it.....
Also you have starter issues... Either bushings or wrong starter for flywheel....
Most starter issues (bushing) can be taken care of by getting SR17 'auto trans' starter as shaft is self supported and does not rely on bushing in bell housing...
Also interesting read here...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506969
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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6Laytons
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, so I counted the teeth on the flywheel and there are 130 teeth which one link said indicates that it is the 12v flywheel.
inspecting the flywheel by looking in the starter part of the bell housing after removing the starter, I don't see any scuffs on the flywheel and I put some paint on the edge of the flywheel, the side facing me which would be the side that would scuff in a 6v tranny (I assume unless it is the tip of the teeth that would make contact but I didn't see any signs of scuffing on the tips either though I didn't paint them to check), and rotated the flywheel and none of the paint was scuffed off. The transmission is the I.R.S. transmission and it is my assumption that VW did not make a 6 volt I.R.S transmission is that correct?
I looked inside of the housing where that starter pin sticks into the bell housing for support and there aren't any bushings in there but I was wondering if there was supposed to be any bushing in there if it is a 12v tranny?
The only thing I did notice is the sound of what sounds like the crank shaft rubbing against rubber when I was slowly rotating the flywheel to count the teeth. I would assume that this is the crankshaft rotating in that red colored rubber seal? Does anyone know how many lbs of force it should take to rotate the crank? It's not too difficult to rotate the lower pulley with a pair of channel locks but I was just wondering what the normal resistance on the crank should be when rotating it by hand with the trans in neutral |
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manxdavid
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 1841
Location: David Jones, Anglesey, North Wales, UK. Manxclub #678.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes there should be a brass bushing. Could the squeaking rubber have been the fanbelt maye? |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: bushing |
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| As Manx said, YES there needs to be a bushing if there is a shaft out past the drive gear. Your tranny and flywheel should be ok. |
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6Laytons
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:40 am Post subject: Re: bushing |
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| MacLeod Willy wrote: |
| As Manx said, YES there needs to be a bushing if there is a shaft out past the drive gear. Your tranny and flywheel should be ok. |
So would you recommend that I just purchase a bushing and where do you purchase them
or do you recommend that I purchase a new autotrans starter instead and is the torque noticeably better on that starter? It's kind of spendy when I looked it up at about $150 or more. |
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lostinbaja
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2004
Posts: 4036
Location: Frankfort, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Any shop that carries EMPI or Bugpak should have the bushing for a few bucks. If you actually need a starter, I would buy the SR17 but if all you need is a bushing, get a bushing. The extra torque of the SR17 isn't needed on a stock engine.
_________________
Jerry...
If it's being towed, it must be a trailer!
"Vee Grow Too Soon Oldt Und Too Late Schmardt"
RIP Morgan
My photos
http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album92 |
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manxdavid
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003
Posts: 1841
Location: David Jones, Anglesey, North Wales, UK. Manxclub #678.
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:52 am Post subject: starter |
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| Yes pop a bushing in for a couple bucks. If the starter is pooched then shop around. I bought one from AutoZone for $39.00 online, no core. It works on my engine stand just fine. The thing looks like a brand new core. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: |
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IF your FLAPS wants $150 for Autotranss starter you looking in wrong place or they see a sucker coming.... Online the remanufactures one start as low as $40 and go up .. Shop wisely...
Better to shop non specialty VW store as pricing in specialty stores usually are premium pricing...
As for bushing.... Be sure you get proper one....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/323827.jpg
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=607433
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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6Laytons
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Dale. I took the starter off to see where the bushing goes in and I'm not sure how long this tranny has been ran without a bushing but the hole where the bushing would go in is a bit egg shaped so I ordered an auto trans starter from Autozone for $40. Hopefully that will clear everything up.
I don't know if there is a problem with the original starter since I had to rap on the starter solenoid at times to get it to work, but then there was paint on the mating surface of the transmission since we painted it before installing it. Looks like the starter is the original bosch starter from Germany with the VW stamp on it.
By the way does anyone know which way that metal plate goes that bolts under the stick shift that controls the shift pattern? |
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