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e&m_ghia
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: WRX shifter Reply with quote

E got a new car, on the verge of the old Outback going past its not-worth-repairing-again point... (The old Outback has since crossed that point.)

After searching around for a while, she settled on a slightly-used Subaru WRX (!!!)... One of the deciding factors was the availability of a manual transmission on a hatchback that will carry a large dog in the back. Barely.

The times I've driven the car, I've noticed something a little strange. (Aside from that acceleration that kicks in about 3000 rpm...) It has an anti-rollback feature. The brake doesn't release until you're going forward, if you're on a hill. Is this conventional in newer cars? Our "previously-newer" car is currently 14 years old, so I wouldn't know...

That rollback thing kind of bugs me. I keep on thinking, when the it engages on minor incline, that I forgot to release the handbrake... And I still insist on using the proper technique for starting, when on a real incline...

I'm also wondering if we're raising a generation of manual-shift drivers who may never know the right technique for starting up a hill. Until it's too late. (I learned on the incline onto Sunset Blvd from La Cienega, where an uncontrolled roll-back implied an unfortunate incident with the Mercedes 450SL that pulled up right behind you... That's back in the day when a lot of the Hollywood types drove around in Mercedes 450SLs...)

The first time one of those "new manual" drivers gets into an "old manual" shift car... They might have a surprise in store for them, on their first real hill...
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Hill Hold" manual gear boxes and accessory feature has been around for a long time, at least since the mid 30's.

Not a new thing but also not available on every configuration....
Even a few automatic transmission equipped vehicles have a "Hill Hold/Assist" feature...

.
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volksaddict
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a subaru thing. My 85 had it
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coad Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Studebaker had it on both manuals and automatics back in the 50's.
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e&m_ghia
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

volksaddict wrote:
Its a subaru thing. My 85 had it


Not in my 2001 wagon... (Also a Subie manual.) Or it doesn't work, if it has it.

But I guess the "feature" is more common than I thought. I still don't like it...

[edit] But, that little gripe aside... The car is a blast. Especially when that acceleration kicks in...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm - my 07 didnt have it. And word of caution about your WRX, hope a kid didnt own it. They tend to get hammered. Also unrelated - full synthetic ONLY oil at a minimum of 5000 miles. I lucked out - trading mine in this morning with 142,000 miles.

Manuals are going away - the number of cars with them available gets smaller every year. And yeah - most people don't know how to drive them anyway anymore - Nice thing if you are getting car-jacked since the thief probably can't drive away.. Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virtually all newish VW cars with manual transmission have it. Its been an option oncmany many cars since the 70s that I know of.

The really, cool thing about the hill holding feature on the new VWs is that the functioning/holding apperatus is not part of the transmission. Its a function of the anti lock, brake unit on the front calipers.

When you come to a stop on any kind of slight or heavy incline, the front calipers lock. The slightest touch or movement to either the accel pedal or clutch and it smoothly lets gos.

It surprised and freaked me out in my 2012 golf. I have the value addition which has every option you can get except for an alloy wheel set. I had not read all the fine print and had no idea it was part of the package. Had to pull over on the way home from the dealer to read the fine print.

I dont actually need it.....but on the steepest hils with B to B traffic....its handy and works wilky smooth and flawlessly. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our 2005 Toyota 4Runner automatic has this. Kind of freaky the first time it engages and I wonder, "crap, what is wriong with the tranny?" It is really handy off road in steep terrain.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 08 Subaru STI has it. Kind of weird to get used to. I think I can turn it off on my STI but I don't know if you can on the WRX. Welcome to the great dumbing down of humans.
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modok
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep my buddies 86 subaru had that.

It started leaking in 2002........... so I bypassed and removed it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coad wrote:
Studebaker had it on both manuals and automatics back in the 50's.


Subaru bought the rights to the system in the early 70's from whoever held the Studebaker patents at the time.

Hill Holders are hardly a "dumbing down" feature. They are incredibly handy. I have had mostly manual transmission vehicles, many of which were Subaru's, over my entire 27 year driving career. I can start on a hill just fine, but the hill holder helps quite a bit. Easy to adjust to once you know how it works.

The original design was a ball/check valve under the master cylinder that rolled back into place at anything over a certain incline. Probably uses some computer controlled BS now that is destined to fail. You wanna talk about dumbing down the driver, lets discuss computer controlled everything.
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e&m_ghia
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andk5591 wrote:
Hmmm - my 07 didnt have it. And word of caution about your WRX, hope a kid didnt own it. They tend to get hammered. Also unrelated - full synthetic ONLY oil at a minimum of 5000 miles. I lucked out - trading mine in this morning with 142,000 miles.

Manuals are going away - the number of cars with them available gets smaller every year. And yeah - most people don't know how to drive them anyway anymore - Nice thing if you are getting car-jacked since the thief probably can't drive away.. Shocked


Wow, lots of replies, but this hit a few of the points... We were told that the previous owner was a "State Department employee who only used the car when assigned domestically"... Sort of the local equivalent of the little old lady who only drove the car to church on sundays, we guess... The car is a 2013 with only 8000 miles when we bought it, so it should be ok regardless. (Original factory warrantee, extended, purchased from a dealer. The subie extended warrantee is actually pretty good.)

Agree that manuals are going away. Domestic availability seemed to be driven by price-of-gas globally, and the advantage is now going to CVT's for that. So they will be disappearing faster, except in the niches. So you take what you can get, we guess.

E's fully-equipped/accessorized 1998 Outback didn't have the hill-hold feature either...

For new features on cars... Many have become conventional, you can get used to them, and they make no difference really: electric windows, door-locks, push-button starters, etc. (M rents a lot of cars on the road, so he's seen a lot of unnecessary/irrelevant features. E doesn't like push-button starters.) We even tried the blue-tooth on the kids IPAD and verified that it will play music through the WRX stereo, but probably won't bother again... Some features, move in the wrong direction... Still don't like those automatic headlights, which are now pretty conventional. They set up a "misleading expectation/habit" that can get you in trouble. Same with the hill-hold thing. (And I'll never get used to multi-function displays - which require reading glasses while driving, to work them properly, for people of my age... Talk about distracted driving...)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an 06 Forester MT and love the hill holder.
It's still a mechanical part and pretty idiot proof.
My Forester is the best car I have ever owned. I would not hesitate to buy a WRX, so long as I knew its history. Because they are little hot rods, they tend to get bought and beat on by idiots.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

e&m_ghia wrote:
Still don't like those automatic headlights, which are now pretty conventional. They set up a "misleading expectation/habit" that can get you in trouble. Same with the hill-hold thing.


I am having a hard time realizing a situation where the hill holder will get you into trouble. It is simple, and it works. If you don't want it, you needn't use it.
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e&m_ghia
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am having a hard time realizing a situation where the hill holder will get you into trouble. It is simple, and it works. If you don't want it, you needn't use it.


Didn't mean to imply that the hill-holder will cause trouble... The trouble is when it's not there, but you implicitly expect it to be. Say, one learns on this kind of car - or even if one hasn't, but gets used to it. (Leave the Ghia garaged for the salty season, and take off for the first spring drive expecting the Ghia to not roll back on that first hill.)

We are creatures of habit. Or at least I am.

But it's E's car. She'll be the one who has to adapt to both cars...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

e&m_ghia wrote:
Quote:
I am having a hard time realizing a situation where the hill holder will get you into trouble. It is simple, and it works. If you don't want it, you needn't use it.


Didn't mean to imply that the hill-holder will cause trouble... The trouble is when it's not there, but you implicitly expect it to be. Say, one learns on this kind of car - or even if one hasn't, but gets used to it. (Leave the Ghia garaged for the salty season, and take off for the first spring drive expecting the Ghia to not roll back on that first hill.)

We are creatures of habit. Or at least I am.

But it's E's car. She'll be the one who has to adapt to both cars...


Ahh, gotcha now. That makes sense. Sort of like learning a new clutch engagement point, or resisting the impulse to stuff the clutch when coming to a stop in an automatic car. Happens to me when I drive my wife's Soob after driving my truck, or any of my VW's.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But let me tell ya how wimpy we are. When I was 16 my Dad had a 52 Chevy 3/4 ton pickup we used to haul coal for home heating. Had vacuum wipers, no heat, foot starter with (thankfully) a hand E-brake. Plus it didnt run really well - like to stall on occasion - Oh yeah - top speed was about 40 MPH - had granny gears.

So - picture it stalling on a hill with a car behind you. You have to put it in neutral - foot on brake and put on e-brake (e brake alone didnt hold it real well). THEN give it some gas while pushing the foot starter. Push the clutch and get it in gear fast while feathering the clutch and gas pedals while you let off the E-brake.

That's when men were men..... Laughing
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Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andk5591 wrote:
But let me tell ya how wimpy we are. ....


Speak for ya self.. Laughing

I was driving our families Cab Over White Freightliners solo spotting trailers at the age of 8.
13 speed, 2 cycle Detroit Diesels.. .. aargghhh arrghh arrghhhh...
..
My Pop is the model of learn by doing... Wink


But yeah... kids today are a bunch of wusses.

.
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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
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Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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cdennisg
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andk5591 wrote:
But let me tell ya how wimpy we are. When I was 16 my Dad had a 52 Chevy 3/4 ton pickup we used to haul coal for home heating. Had vacuum wipers, no heat, foot starter with (thankfully) a hand E-brake. Plus it didnt run really well - like to stall on occasion - Oh yeah - top speed was about 40 MPH - had granny gears.

So - picture it stalling on a hill with a car behind you. You have to put it in neutral - foot on brake and put on e-brake (e brake alone didnt hold it real well). THEN give it some gas while pushing the foot starter. Push the clutch and get it in gear fast while feathering the clutch and gas pedals while you let off the E-brake.

That's when men were men..... Laughing


Makes me think of this guy... http://www.nwcn.com/story/news/2015/01/02/man-drives-75-truck-to-work-for-38-years/21207241/
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your old 2001 Outback is beyond repairing anymore then my 1998 should be waaay past that point. But it's not. Razz
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