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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:39 pm Post subject: Squats |
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My car seems pretty squatish but I don't really have a reference as this is the only T4 I've ever driven. I seem to recall reading that when the strut inserts fail they fail up, pushing the back end down and exaggerating the nose high lift, maybe I'm misremembering.
But here's another thing: measured at the bottom edge of the back bumper impact strip, when I put the car in gear it drops 5/8"+. Normal or mushy springs? --Brad |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
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The car pivots about the rear axle. The bumper hangs out rearward about another 3+ feet from the axle centerline. When the nose tips up.....the whole car pivots about the rear axle. The bumper drops lower.
Typically the springs in the rear really dont get much sag. If the shocks in the rear are shot and the front struts are shot....the car squats about an inch in the rear. This looks worse because the nose is high.Ray |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17970 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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vwfye cut his front springs down to level his 412 wagon. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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19super73 Hardcore Stock Nazi
Joined: October 18, 2007 Posts: 4351 Location: Cité Soleil
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Im on the road through next week I am about two evenings away from posting the strut rebuild series. I wont be able to do much this week. Down to placing text now.
The audi strut mod will get your sills dead level by lowering the front about an inch. You can go a little lower if you want to mix and match bump stup bushings and a few spacers. Sorry its taking so long. Ray |
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412Variant Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2014 Posts: 7 Location: Southern Utah
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Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: KYB strut cartridges and shocks |
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Ray, I see that you are on the road. I've sent you a PM regarding the Audi KYB strut cartridge. Have you read it.
Awaiting your response....
412 Variant. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: KYB strut cartridges and shocks |
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412Variant wrote: |
Ray, I see that you are on the road. I've sent you a PM regarding the Audi KYB strut cartridge. Have you read it.
Awaiting your response....
412 Variant. |
Yes...I am pulling up my part #'s when I sit down to do e-mails in the am. I will give a complete answer. Ray |
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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: KYB strut cartridges and shocks |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
412Variant wrote: |
Ray, I see that you are on the road. I've sent you a PM regarding the Audi KYB strut cartridge. Have you read it.
Awaiting your response....
412 Variant. |
Yes...I am pulling up my part #'s when I sit down to do e-mails in the am. I will give a complete answer. Ray |
I'm tempted to use the low pressure nitrogen Bilstien version for the Audi 4000, rather than the less expensive kyb low pressure insert.
I'm curious about the weld in castor adjustment on the front, and whatever was similar in the back. I think my squats are a perfect storm of wear, including trailing arm bushings and wheezy back shocks. I have spare trailing arms complete, easy to rebuild them on the bench and swap them. I see eccentric bolts on the inner bushing on my car right now, that makes sense, the drawings show the carrier has slotted holes horizontally, which makes less sense to me. One wheel has very exaggerated camber, my guess is a blown out bushing. I don't see how castor could be adjusted, I can't see a mod in my minds eye. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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The low pressure bilsteins "might" work if the gas pressure is not too high. One thing for sure is that if you use high pressure gas like KYB Gr-2.....it absolutely WILL break things fast. Been there.
In the rear you need camber and toe-in. Toe-in is there from the factory. Camber.....can be added. ...but its very different. Not, hard to do fabricating wise....just that your rear trailing arms, shocks, springs and sway bar must come off to do it.
When you have the trailing arms off.....if you look into the slotted holes in the crossmember....you will see that there is an aluminum spacer...literally a block of aluminum with holes in it....that floats between the two sides of the hollow crossmember. This is there to make sure that when you bolt down the yokes for the trailing wishbone. ....it does not squeeze yje crossmember and crush it.
So.....you take a die grinder and enlarge the slots in both sides of the crossmember. ...on the top side only. Then....underneath on the bottom of the Cross member directly under the floating aluminum block. ....you drill a 10mm hole. Thread the hole. Put in a short 10mm bolt with a locknut.
Then....install the trailing wishbone and pivot yokes.
When you get it aligned...slightly loosen the nuts on the inner yoke.....and tighten the vertical 10mm bolt underneath. This drives the aluminum spacer block upward. ...and the pivot point of the trailing wishbone with it......adjusting the camber. Lock the pivot point hold down bolts...done.
The front castor....about 75% of what you need is already installed from the factory. Right now.....you can split the castor adjustment side to side to make it equal....but you cannot make it have more castor.
The three bolts that hold the front T shaped cross member to the body....thread into captive nuts held in slots in the body. The two forward captive nuts only slide side to side. The nut in the rear....slides fore and aft only.
To make fully adjustable castor.....you remove the T shaped subframe and slot the forward two holes......so the whole subframd may slide forward and be locked down. This moves the control arms forward with it....and the struts are attached at the ends of the control arms. This increases castor. You still retain the ability to tilt the subframe from side to side to also make sure its equal.
But once you move the subframe quite a bit to one side...it can screw with camber.....so also slot the bolt holes for the control arm pivot points....and put an eccentric bolt there as well. So now.....everything is fully adjustable. Ray |
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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, factory rear camber is -1^. Ray, did you go more negative, esp. w/the 3/4 ton econoline shock? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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bradself wrote: |
Okay, factory rear camber is -1^. Ray, did you go more negative, esp. w/the 3/4 ton econoline shock? |
The problem with these cars is that as they age the negative camber increases. Typically you will see 3 degrees pr more. Its hard on the axle bearings and outer CV and wears the crap out of the tires.
Some of this is from bushings and some is actual metal fatigue. This is why you may need to install an adjustment.
The factory -1 camber is just about right. The 3/4 ton shocks should not change the stance at all.
Making new bushings really helps. Ray |
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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
The low pressure bilsteins "might" work if the gas pressure is not too high.
The front castor....about 75% of what you need is already installed from the factory. Right now.....you can split the castor adjustment side to side to make it equal....but you cannot make it have more castor.
The three bolts that hold the front T shaped cross member to the body....thread into captive nuts held in slots in the body. The two forward captive nuts only slide side to side. The nut in the rear....slides fore and aft only.
To make fully adjustable castor.....you remove the T shaped subframe and slot the forward two holes......so the whole subframd may slide forward and be locked down. This moves the control arms forward with it....and the struts are attached at the ends of the control arms. This increases castor. You still retain the ability to tilt the subframe from side to side to also make sure its equal.
But once you move the subframe quite a bit to one side...it can screw with camber.....so also slot the bolt holes for the control arm pivot points....and put an eccentric bolt there as well. So now.....everything is fully adjustable. Ray |
So in the rear the adjuster would be only on the inboard arm of the wishbone.
On the front it sounds like you're saying to open up the two front slots for the t/bar so they're deeper, front to back, towards the front of the car.
Control arm slots opened up both inboard and outboard? Weld onS for the eccentric bolts/washers to turn against? And how much for any of these, in mm's?
The Bilstien I mentioned is an OE replacement not an upgrade--blurb says "softer valving" low pressure nitrogen that doesn't sacrifice factory ride blah blah. Afaik there is no longer a performance insert from KYB, just the single OE replacement offering. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:45 am Post subject: |
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I just pulled about 20 pictures from my drive of the castor and camber mods to the front end. I will post them later today when I get back to my hotel.
In a pinch....you can do the camber mod without welding. It requires marking the slot length around the bolt holes for the control arms.....and grinding the slots with a die grinder or dremel. The points that the eccentric bolt rides against I welded on. But if you wanted to....since there will never be any real tension against them from the eccentric washer on the bolt....you could use 1/4-20 screws to hold the stop tabs on.
I did something a little different. I welded blocks on each side of the slot for the eccentric to bear against ....mainly so I could use 6mm hex head screws to lock the eccentric in place. I did this because....I am not using more than about 25 pounds of torque on the control arm bushing bolt.
I have delrin bushings with delrin spacer flanges. If you tighten the bushing bolt very tight....it crushes the delrin too hard. It wont crack it.....but is causes very fast wear. So I tighten until snug....and I use a cotter pin through the bolt with a castle nut.
It wears less and moves smoother.
The castor slots.....probably could be done several ways....weld in a machined insert....or do like I did.....which also requires welding .....you will see from the pictures. You could also probably just grind out the slots and tube....and drop in a steel bar with a slot and tighten it down....but it would have to be cleanly machined. Ray |
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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Pics would be fantastic Ray thanks. Depending upon the existing possible vertical travel in the rear cross member horizontal slots I can imagine what you're describing but I can't picture the front mod. Thanks! |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ok....this is only a fraction of what would go into a document for the front end but its what I could get together for this on the fly.
This is going to be a bit long.
This is the subframe ends. in the front. I used a 3/4" holesaw to saw a hole though 50% of the welded in steel tube to make a keyhole shape. I used 1" steel conduit...split and them elongated on the sides...tack welded it in on both sides...then ground both sides flat. So make an elongated slot.
This after the welding
the other side....I also made a small steel plate to go around the tube I welded in just to add metal in...not sure if it needs it at all.
This is the right side captive nut slot in the body that the subframe bolts go into to allow the subframe to move. Noot that they move side to side
this is the rearward captive not that allows the subframe to move forward and back.
Left side captive nut and slot
This is the right hand side eye where the control arm pivot bolt is.
I marked the centerline and made sure that the slot scribe lines are parallel to the ground so that the control arm camber adjustment slides straight sideways.
I am using a spare pair of eccentric bolts from the rear end...so i am measuring the slot length and distance from the stop in the next picture....for what I will grind into the front subframe
the carbide grinding burrs I used in my cheap northern tool die grinder....
to do this....these are the slots
Then I mocked up where the fulcrum blocks are going to be in this series of photos.....
These are the blocks that the eccentric screw will bear against. I installed 6mm lock screws so once I adjust eccentric...i lock it so i dont have to use as much torque on the bolts
Measuring the control arm bushing bore
Oversized OD and undersized ID delrin tube from Mcmaster carr...about $18
Installed onto the original steel bushing removed from the original control arm bushing and then filed on the drill press to be .001" interference on the control arm bushing bore.
Delrin end flanges made from delrin plate and cut with hole saw
Bushings pressed in and filed flat
Subframe stripped and ready for epoxy
the fulcrum blocks welded in on each side of the eccentric slot
These slots are to use a pry bar to move the sub frame from side to side during alignment adjustment. Ray |
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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Wow, great pics, thanks Ray! I had imagined enlarging the slots on the body for the captured nut, my minds eye had it backwards. Do you rely on torquing the bolt alone to keep the subframe from moving from an aligned position? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Yes...torque on the bolts keep the subframe nicely anchored. The tubes through the subframe are substantial. ...and heavily welded....so that about 60 ft lbs is used to hold them in place.
I used a bi-metal hole saw to drill all the way through the subframe and basically split the tube that was welded In at the factory in half. I clamped the subframe to a workbench with a C clamp and used a corded drill with the hole saw after drilling a 1/4" pilot hole just next to the tube.
The heavy construction of the bolt hole tubes through the subframe are what makes just bolt torque enough to hold things still because it makes the subframe solid enough that it does not crush.
Others have drilled the whole tube out and had a piece of bar stock milled to have a slot through it....dopped it into the hole and welded both ends. Thats nice if you have the money for machine work and a welder with more than 140 amps.....but I also did not want to lose or disturb the very nice thick level top pads that fit against the body.
I still have a small amount of weld clearancing to do on the top of the subframe.....but its largely done.
I may add a small adjuster screw at the rearward end of the subframe to make it easier for the alignment guys to do fine adjustment. Ray |
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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not quite getting what the set screws in the fulcrum blocks actually bottom against, the sides of the bolt head?
No castle nut and cotter? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:25 am Post subject: |
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bradself wrote: |
I'm not quite getting what the set screws in the fulcrum blocks actually bottom against, the sides of the bolt head?
No castle nut and cotter? |
They bear against the actual eccentric cam/washer at each end of the bolt. They keep the eccentric from rotating.
I do this because if not....you need to use really excessive torque on the eccentric bolt to keep it from rotating and changing your alignment.
I have found that as you drive and this area gets dust and grit into the lube that you must have on these pivot points...it wears a depression into the yoke area from the end of the steel bushing....necessitating tightening the bolt up again every X number of miles.
Also excessive torque on the bolt squeezes the yoke area together.
The factory used rubber bushings. As those wore....the control arms usually slip forward along the bushing insert coming to rest against the yoke and wearing it heavily. This happens to 100% of every type 4 eventually.
What it causes is misalignment of the radius arm in its socket at the rear....and wears out the plastic centering rings between the radius arm donuts....this causes really poor cornering control and wear of everything else.
This is why when using the Delrin bushings....you either need to use those black packing discs in the picture when using a straight bushing like I did...or you use a two piece bushing with a flange on each end that has been machined.
This means that the control arm bushings are now tightly packed in the yoke...and the radius arm is rigidly guided in it bushings
But...if you use full factory torque...those flat delrin washers will wear fast. As it is...high torque is not needed except to keep the bushing bolt from moving....which is why I used the lock screws.
Also the reason why I elected not to use flanged bushings is because....the flanges....those black discs...are a wear item. Had I used flanged bushings ...every 40-50k miles I would have to replace the entire bushing assembly because the flanges are worn out. In this case....I just replace the black discs.
That and the fact that I could make these at home on a drill press...or even just a drill for that matter.
There is also precedent for using set screw locked eccentric adjusters. Lots of other car manufacturers do this as well. I found this when searching for eccentric bolts.
Here is an example of one that uses an outer lock plate into a hole in the cam of the adjusting bolt. The difference in this vehicle ...the Nissan pathfinder...is that the cam on the bolt drives against another plate that is the moving part. The bolt hole for the camber bolt is not slotted like ours will be. So there is plenty of flat metal for the set screws to drive against.
On ours....had I just drilled a hole in the cam and added a set screw....its very possible that the set screw may drop into the slot and the cam could not be locked.....so I added the tabs to have the set screw drive against the cam to lock it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NISSAN-552267S00B-REAR-ARM...mp;vxp=mtr
Ray |
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bradself Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013 Posts: 167 Location: SF, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Being lazy here, I think I bookmarked pics from someone's trailing arm rebuild but those are fab'd from urethane rather than glass filled delrin, correct? Do you do top hats, Ray, or similar to your control arm bushings? Just eyeballing the original bushings it looks like a new beefier inner sleeve might be needed to hold up under the 60 #s tightening torque
, the original looks like a big roll pin, actually. |
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