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Messing around with some LED light bars:
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photogdave
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:


I don't know if the lenses are dirty, the camera is hypersensitive to the higher frequencies of your LED lights, or what, but I have to point this out for accuracy, balance, and fairness sake for my Samba brethren. You can tell I am not a fan of the current LED lights (yet), but that aside I think you need to provide a fair photo to start the comparison.


Another aspect of light-testing photos posted here that I've never seen addressed (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
What camera settings are being used? The exposure and ISO settings have to be locked in from shot to shot to effectively show the differences in illumination. If any of the settings are on auto then the photos will be useless.
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Steve M.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:
Also, I know this is going to be me sounding like an asshat, but my interest is in getting balanced information out there for my forum brethren.

I don't know if the lenses are dirty, the camera is hypersensitive to the higher frequencies of your LED lights, or what, but I have to point this out for accuracy, balance, and fairness sake for my Samba brethren. You can tell I am not a fan of the current LED lights (yet), but that aside I think you need to provide a fair photo to start the comparison.


Quote:
Another aspect of light-testing photos posted here that I've never seen addressed (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
What camera settings are being used? The exposure and ISO settings have to be locked in from shot to shot to effectively show the differences in illumination. If any of the settings are on auto then the photos will be useless.


In the same regard: Trying to get calibrated photo's from one camera in one location to another persons camera in another location is just not really going to be done unless the 2,3 or 4 guys involved in doing it come up deciding to use the same camera settings. So it mean your all going to have manual cameras that you can set the ISO,shutter and f/stops. Then it comes down deciding your all going to use a dark road without streetlights and with dark shoulders so there is a similar basis for comparison.
It's the time of year where you have snow so the reflection from the snow just cancels any comparison.
That's not to say anything negative about the your lights and the time and effort that you put into going out to do it. It's great that you did and I do thank you for doing it because it was good to see.
What it is right now is people are getting these lights, there not cheap and you want them to work for the money you spent. So who am I to say your not doing it right? That's b/s, your doing it fine they look good and their working for you and that's what matters for you - they work and your happy. You guys are doing a valuable service for the rest of us.

What would be fun is to have a "Lightfest" when the weather gets warm and people can get together on a dark night to show off the lights and then we could all do a comparison with the same camera, same road and have a great time over a weekend BBQ somewhere. Or we could just make it an another contest at the already scheduled meets.
The winner is the one who can light a candle at a 100 yards! That's Bragging rights!

For right now though-don't stop. It is a wealth of good ideas.
(If you really want to get scientific about it put up white reflectors at a mile and see who can a reflection or something like that.)
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Steve M.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I'm seeing too clearly is the bright intensity right in front of the driver where your eyes have to adjust to that and it is a much lesser intensity
beyond that spot. Not that it is a poor light because the output is strong, but the terrain farther away from the driver is absorbing the light and not reflecting back because it is so close.
I'd like to see some light wizard reverse that so the intensity is out there along the sides of the road and ahead to see what's jumping out of the trees /bushes and not letting you pick out every road crack right in front of the van.
It's got to be even illumination across the view or it's worth nothing to me.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
One thing I'm seeing too clearly is the bright intensity right in front of the driver where your eyes have to adjust to that and it is a much lesser intensity
beyond that spot. Not that it is a poor light because the output is strong, but the terrain farther away from the driver is absorbing the light and not reflecting back because it is so close.
I'd like to see some light wizard reverse that so the intensity is out there along the sides of the road and ahead to see what's jumping out of the trees /bushes and not letting you pick out every road crack right in front of the van.
It's got to be even illumination across the view or it's worth nothing to me.


This is the function of lenses. Lens are able bend and reflect light in designed patterns, thus focusing it in a desired area / areas.

Remember, early lighthouses were lit by only a meager candle or oil flame, then through the miracle of lenses you could see the light miles away at sea.

These new LED's ........ They need a pair of lenses to focus their amazing low energy power.

If it's been done I haven't yet seen it...... But there's a LOT I haven't yet seen! Embarassed
I Mainly see ever larger groupings of LED's ...... But then again, I rarely look.... I'm admittedly one of those old school guys.......

Dave
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freerider15
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, ok that took off a little unexpected Shocked

I'll start addressing all the comments best I can:


rsxsr wrote:
I get that they throw awesome light and draw little current, but I just can't get past the "bling" aspect of these. Give me a set of round Cibies or Marchals I realize there is no comparison I guess I am just old school.


I guess to me they don't seem "bling", but to each their own. I can completely respect what your tastes are, I know some guys prefer the "old school" look they'll call it with round lights and glass lenses. In the end, as we ALL know it comes down to personal preference Very Happy

climberjohn wrote:
Freerider,

Thanks for posting your photos. They are pretty impressive.

So, are you going to be selling lights like these?
If you are, I'd appreciate some more info.

-CJ


Hey, I will indeed. I can send you a PM here shortly.

tarandusVDub wrote:
I would be too.

My needs are for a shorter bar that would fit mounted under the top of the Twin Peaks grill guard offered by RMW.

http://www.rockymountainwesty.com/Twin_Peaks_Deluxe_Grille_Guard_p/rmw-npd01.htm


Hey, I'll send you a PM as well shortly.

IdahoDoug wrote:
I like the short distance illumination these provide, for low speed exploring at night, etc. And I should say that no question eventually LED will improve and I will have some and never look back. But, for driving at speed in any kind of weather the uncontrolled optics of a forward facing LED must produce some mind boggling light blowback, based on all the places the light is going in the shots.

I point that out for the unitiated. Driving down a highway at 70, you would quickly fatigue from the blowback versus a set of quality incandescent aftermarket lights. And as for distance, if my Vanagon were on that road with my Hella Eurobeams lamps on, you'd see telephone poles illuminated all the way to the horizon.

There is a huge change arriving right now in LEDs where they are rearward facing and the reflector shapes the beam. That is the future and I think that is when they will rival incandescents on many more aspects than simply low power usage. That's not enough in my book to make the switch - quality illumination is the bottom line.


Some of this I would have respectfully to disagree with. Depending on the size of the bar, there aren't many types of light that can touch these lumens for lumens. As I said I come from the offroad world. I've talked with competitors who run everything from an event called King of the Hammers, to BAJA, to the Mint 400, etc.

Pretty much every one of them runs LED's for a reason. When you're blasting at 70+ MPH across the desert (as I have), nothing has been able to compete (other than maybe HIDs). Once again, this all boils down to visual perspectives, as we physically each will see a little different, and have our own preferences.

Comparing incandescents to LED's, to myself and many others, there is no comparison. I used to run incandescents myself, and will never go back. I light a nice, crisp, clear light white most incandescents don't provide. One of the main reasons as well, is in the 4x4 world...incandescents don't last long either Very Happy .

Really, I'm in no way trying to (and I ask we don't) turn this into an "incansescent vs. LED" thread. It will all boil down to what one individually wants.

danfromsyr wrote:
here here, I'm an old school light guy for real long range illumination..
my favs are the Bosch Rallye lights since that's what I own and now they're priced like vintage gold..
link to my baja w/ these https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/270407.jpg
but a pair of these up at chest height and equipped with 100w H3s will light the road to the horizon and to the sides 90* out..

I do embrace LED lights for my reverse and I have some in the front on the sides.. turning lights.. tucked under the frame to not blind anyone while on but extremely handy for finding and setting up camp in the dark. especially in the rain. though I find many LED lights lack depth (color?) in light absorbing rain. I run old school Bosch fogs up front under the bumper lip for road illumination.

next LEDs for me is underbody puddle "rock" lights for camp illumination but again subtle and in 2 strands amber and white..


As said before, if that is what you personally prefer, by all means rock it Very Happy

IdahoDoug wrote:
They are Hella Rallye 3000s, which are the full size 9+ diameter reflectors. In lighting physics, size matters though for decades light makers intent on reducing their costs have tried in semi-truthful ways to say otherwise. There are some clever designs that get a lot of light out of smaller reflectors, but they don't compare to the full size ones.

Anyhow, I have a pair of these bolted to my Wolfsburg bumper with custom welded aluminum mounts and a shaped thick aluminum backing plate on the inside of the bumper. I currently have fog pattern lenses in them, but I also have a set of Euro driving beam lenses (actually not lenses, its an entire reflector/lense unit) for them. I've had an identical set on one of my LandCruisers since it was a month old in 1992. They now have 235,000 miles of unblemished service. I also have a set of the Hella Rallye 4000s on my other Cruiser, which are the updated version of the 3000s.

They are wired with a heavy relay harness I built myself. 12g wire, tinned soldered connections, Bosch relay for each lamp. On one Cruiser, each lamp has its own separate fused circuit and relay and dash switch for complete redundancy. Overkill, I admit. But my wife and I used to roam around the desert in it for days by ourselves.

Anyhow, thats what I have. Most of you won't even have a single friend with a set of full size lamps to look at. But the first time you drive behind a set, you will nod your head and say "Wow, now I get it." That's why all the pro rally teams have racks of full size lights - they wanna win!!


Those Hella's are one of the few I would consider running outside of the LED's. The issue with them is they're nowhere near "low profile" at 9" in diameter Very Happy . Mounting a 9" round light (that are also pretty expensive) isn't easy.

I do know several guys on higher profile Rally teams, and to be truthful they've said they're looking to switch over to LED. They like the big roundies, but are having issues with branches, debris, etc. taking them out (and thus in some cases taking them out of the race).
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Steve M.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freerider,
How robust are these LED's your familiar with in what your doing?

In referencing taking the lights out by branches, etc. with the LED bars you can protect them better with custom stone guards and grills since they are smaller and easier to mount so they are less of a target.

What about long term for the average joe's putting them on their street/off-road vehicles.
Are they going to be water-proof over the years?
Are the lens or plastic faces going to withstand fading and yellowing like the 1st generation plastic headlights?
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freerider15
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: lights Reply with quote

joseph928 wrote:
climberjohn wrote:
Freerider,

Thanks for posting your photos. They are pretty impressive.

So, are you going to be selling lights like these?
If you are, I'd appreciate some more info.

-CJ
Yes how much and where to get them. You can pm us with cost. Or put a add in the Samba! Very Happy i


I'll work on getting one up today Very Happy

IdahoDoug wrote:
Also, I know this is going to be me sounding like an asshat, but my interest is in getting balanced information out there for my forum brethren.

Justin - you've gotta do something about that comparison photo you are using to demonstrate how bright the LEDs are. I'm referring to the first photo with the Jeep headlights on high beam which you then compare to on the LED shots below it. Obviously, I am not there to see the test vehicle but something is worth pointing out. In the Jeep high beam photo, somehow we cannot even see the first telephone pole on the right. Based on there being 4 fence posts between the Jeep and the subject telephone pole and pasture fence posts typically being 10', I'm going to estimate the telephone pole is a mere 50 feet from the Jeep. And you cannot see it. 50 feet. Those must be the most anemic high beams I have ever seen - that is only 3 car lengths.

I don't know if the lenses are dirty, the camera is hypersensitive to the higher frequencies of your LED lights, or what, but I have to point this out for accuracy, balance, and fairness sake for my Samba brethren. You can tell I am not a fan of the current LED lights (yet), but that aside I think you need to provide a fair photo to start the comparison.


Hey, no by all means I appreciate the discussion.

I'm a Mechanical Engineer by degree, Validation Engineer by title so I don't take this stuff lighty (no pun intended Very Happy )

So all these photos were taken with the same exposure, and same shutter speed. I won't lie Sam's headlights aren't the best, but aren't much different that most Jeep Cherokee OEM headlights (which are a little underwhelming from the factory).

We actually had to choose a lower exposure, in order to not blow out the photo with white wash on the upper end. This in turn makes the XJ headlights looks worse than they really are.

I didn't want to "doctor" the photos in any way, I wanted to keep the same exposure if at all possible. I could have made the XJ headlights look more "as they look in person", but then the 42" and 50" bar photos would have had to have the exposure bumped down even further.

With these, photos are hard to get without a setup worth far more than we were playing with (Canon Rebel Camera). I will be honest that the illumination is better in person, doesn't white wash you up front like the photos make it look. For me, it's something if needed that I could look at for hours.

The 50" bar illuminates things at nearly 3/4 of a mile, and in some cases on a clearer night, will start reflecting and slightly illuminating things right about 1 mile. Yes, that is complete overkill for many people. When you driving 70+ mph hour out in the dirt, on a dirt road, etc (as I have) that 1/2 mile or more illumination really REALLY comes in handy.

I can respect that your not a fan of LED's (yet), as some people just prefer other styles. Some of that does come from the physical optics of our eyes as well.

The fact is, for many they work, and work extremely well. As stated before, I will never go back to an incandescent by a long shot. I was never able to keep them alive (vibration, debris cracking lenses, water, etc.) and they just didn't have the light output I liked. Part of this came from the fact that I'm not huge on "super pencil beams" that many of the manufacturers provided. I would have to run 4 lights just to "cover the spread".

photogdave wrote:
IdahoDoug wrote:


I don't know if the lenses are dirty, the camera is hypersensitive to the higher frequencies of your LED lights, or what, but I have to point this out for accuracy, balance, and fairness sake for my Samba brethren. You can tell I am not a fan of the current LED lights (yet), but that aside I think you need to provide a fair photo to start the comparison.


Another aspect of light-testing photos posted here that I've never seen addressed (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
What camera settings are being used? The exposure and ISO settings have to be locked in from shot to shot to effectively show the differences in illumination. If any of the settings are on auto then the photos will be useless.


The camera setting were absolutely taken into account. We played with ISO and exposure settings (and maybe even more Sam could chime in on) for well over half an hour before deciding. The camera was definitely not in auto, since I wanted the best representation I could of the difference in perceivable light output between the sizes.
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freerider15
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
In the same regard: Trying to get calibrated photo's from one camera in one location to another persons camera in another location is just not really going to be done unless the 2,3 or 4 guys involved in doing it come up deciding to use the same camera settings. So it mean your all going to have manual cameras that you can set the ISO,shutter and f/stops. Then it comes down deciding your all going to use a dark road without streetlights and with dark shoulders so there is a similar basis for comparison.
It's the time of year where you have snow so the reflection from the snow just cancels any comparison.
That's not to say anything negative about the your lights and the time and effort that you put into going out to do it. It's great that you did and I do thank you for doing it because it was good to see.
What it is right now is people are getting these lights, there not cheap and you want them to work for the money you spent. So who am I to say your not doing it right? That's b/s, your doing it fine they look good and their working for you and that's what matters for you - they work and your happy. You guys are doing a valuable service for the rest of us.

What would be fun is to have a "Lightfest" when the weather gets warm and people can get together on a dark night to show off the lights and then we could all do a comparison with the same camera, same road and have a great time over a weekend BBQ somewhere. Or we could just make it an another contest at the already scheduled meets.
The winner is the one who can light a candle at a 100 yards! That's Bragging rights!

For right now though-don't stop. It is a wealth of good ideas.
(If you really want to get scientific about it put up white reflectors at a mile and see who can a reflection or something like that.)


I completely and 100% agree.

Sam and I were going back and forth with the issue of reflection from snow (which does contribute to the white wash closer in). Since I am getting up and running, I needed photos of light output.

When the snow clears, we will be taking the same photos, on the same road, with the same settings, to show what it looks like on a clear, dry day.

Without having a group of people there, with several different cameras, and several different types of lights, one could get or say anything they want from the pictures. What my goal was, was to provide the best shots we could giving the best representation without a mobile studio essentially. Some companies won't even give you these photos, you just have to go by "well I guess XXXX lumens is gonna be decently bright".

Everyone that has bought one from me in person, I pull the light out of the box, connect it to it's harness, and let them see, play with, handle, etc. the light before I even let them buy it. I've yet to have one person who hasn't been "blown" away with the amount of light they throw, and the "crispness" of it. But, alas...personal preference Very Happy .

In the end, I'm just doing the best I can to try and give a true, and fair, representation of the lights. No photoshop, no upping the exposure between lights...none of that.
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freerider15
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
One thing I'm seeing too clearly is the bright intensity right in front of the driver where your eyes have to adjust to that and it is a much lesser intensity
beyond that spot. Not that it is a poor light because the output is strong, but the terrain farther away from the driver is absorbing the light and not reflecting back because it is so close.
I'd like to see some light wizard reverse that so the intensity is out there along the sides of the road and ahead to see what's jumping out of the trees /bushes and not letting you pick out every road crack right in front of the van.
It's got to be even illumination across the view or it's worth nothing to me.


The light intensity really isn't that bad up close. Sam can speak to this as well since he was there. It is nothing that strained either one of our eyes remotely. The poles, road, bushes, etc. WELL down the road were lit up plenty well.

To me it is a very comfortable light. I've used them quite a bit, and I live them. I've got a 22" bar mounted on the front of my tow rig (F-350) for areas where there are LONG distances of dark road. It's been the difference between hating towing at night, and being able to relax while towing for me. I can easily flip the light off when there is any oncoming traffic, and flip it right back on without any "delay" in the light. I will say whole-heartedly I like light, and a lot of it Very Happy

I do carry two different series. The one that is shown on Sam's van is the LX series. It has wider reflectors with additional optical diffusers to spread the light more left and right, though you do lose just a little bit of distance.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: lights Reply with quote

freerider15 wrote:

The camera setting were absolutely taken into account. We played with ISO and exposure settings (and maybe even more Sam could chime in on) for well over half an hour before deciding. The camera was definitely not in auto, since I wanted the best representation I could of the difference in perceivable light output between the sizes.


Nice! I didn't mean to imply you don't know what you're doing, I just wanted to make a general comment about photography that may educate others trying to take the same kind of photos.
Thanks for posting about your work. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Steve M. wrote:
One thing I'm seeing too clearly is the bright intensity right in front of the driver where your eyes have to adjust to that and it is a much lesser intensity
beyond that spot. Not that it is a poor light because the output is strong, but the terrain farther away from the driver is absorbing the light and not reflecting back because it is so close.
I'd like to see some light wizard reverse that so the intensity is out there along the sides of the road and ahead to see what's jumping out of the trees /bushes and not letting you pick out every road crack right in front of the van.
It's got to be even illumination across the view or it's worth nothing to me.


This is the function of lenses. Lens are able bend and reflect light in designed patterns, thus focusing it in a desired area / areas.

Remember, early lighthouses were lit by only a meager candle or oil flame, then through the miracle of lenses you could see the light miles away at sea.

These new LED's ........ They need a pair of lenses to focus their amazing low energy power.

If it's been done I haven't yet seen it...... But there's a LOT I haven't yet seen! Embarassed
I Mainly see ever larger groupings of LED's ...... But then again, I rarely look.... I'm admittedly one of those old school guys.......

Dave


Dave, you bring up a good point that brings out the engineer in me Very Happy

Optics. Without proper optics (i.e. reflectors), they light is...well...junk.

This is where you can find the good, from the bad. The company that I finally decided to go with...was one of the only ones that let me talk to their engineers. They were able to make me comfortable that they had done the proper research into optics (optical clarity, properly sized reflectors, etc.) just as ANY company should do.

MANY of the bars you see out there...barely, if ever had this. This (and several other quality reasons) are why I shy people away from the Amazon/eBay bars. I got burnt by several of those, which is why I started sourcing my own. Yes, these lights are imported. However, there is just as much disparity in quality, as you would see over here. I got some bars that essentially made better paperweights than they did lights.

Not only are you dealing with reflectors/optics...you have to take the LED itself into account. CREE's tend to be more known, and are a high quality LED. Are they the best in the world? Yes and no (compared against Osram, Phillips, etc.). They have though pretty well set the bar for the type of LED's they produce. LED's themselves have several grading criteria. Without going into too much detail, you could have the same model LED in two lights...and one will outperform the other. They are graded on a scale from AA to Z, Z being the worst.

Rigid, VisionX, Baja Designs...they use AA and A quality LED's (and it reflects in their prices). The ones that I have use B/C grade (still very high given the scale). Many of the cheap cheap bars...down to H/I area from what I was able to find / extract from companies.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
freerider,
How robust are these LED's your familiar with in what your doing?

In referencing taking the lights out by branches, etc. with the LED bars you can protect them better with custom stone guards and grills since they are smaller and easier to mount so they are less of a target.

What about long term for the average joe's putting them on their street/off-road vehicles.
Are they going to be water-proof over the years?
Are the lens or plastic faces going to withstand fading and yellowing like the 1st generation plastic headlights?


Very.

The stuff myself and the guys I know put them through...it probably FAR more than anyone on here will. I'm a rock crawler guy. I've got what's left of a 1998 Jeep Cherokee, which is essentially now a full tube buggy.

So, our rigs (and thus lights) see a *wee* bit of vibration (running dirt roads at high speeds, coming on/off/over obstacles, etc.)

The reason we and other have lower failure rates with these, is because they are such a lower profile. The dual row light bars face's are right about 3" tall. This is much easier to build a protective "mount" for. Even if there isn't a protective mount like a mini-rollbar, just the fact that they don't stick up near as far, or can fit in tighter places down low (like in the front of many truck's airdams) helps them survive. I've never seen a stone guard like you might see for headlights on these...not that you couldn't build one.

The only one's that I've known of go out were either the reeeeally cheap bars...or...they got smashed Very Happy Otherwise I know several people who've had theirs for years...and no problems what so ever (not to say like with ALL products there isn't a small margin of failure rate). The company that I now source from, has a failure rate of 0.01%. As an engineer (not aero or civil)...i'll take it.

The bars I have are IP68 waterproof rating, so they're waterproof. I have mine come standard with military style breathers, so that way the air inside the light is at ambient pressure with the outside atmosphere. The gets rid of the "pringles can" effect from change in altitude that can cause many light to leak.

Since I do what I do, actions speak louder than words in my mind. I actually put an 8" bar and a 14" bar in a 10 gallon aquarium for several weeks, turning them on and off daily...the lights didn't flinch. Same with the light pods. I actually froze one of the light pods in a solid block of ice. Still didn't phase it. They're all still full sealed, and work perfect.

I've known guys running these for years, and have never personally heard of any yellowing. The lenses on many lights (including mine) are poly-carbonate. What I do like about these, that you don't get with many sealed beam lights...is the ability to change out the lense. IF you do manage to hit something big enough to crack the poly carbonate, its replaceable.

Simply remove the front screws, pull the face off, have a same sized peice cut out, apply sealer, and remount the face. Can't do that with sealed glass lights Very Happy

I've only known one person who had to change his lens. A nice sized rock came up from someone in front of him and hit the face. I can guarantee you this would have shattered a glass lens. The poly carbonate does have tensile give to it, so it is able to absorb some of the impact unlike a glass.
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freerider15
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: lights Reply with quote

photogdave wrote:


Nice! I didn't mean to imply you don't know what you're doing, I just wanted to make a general comment about photography that may educate others trying to take the same kind of photos.
Thanks for posting about your work. Cool


Hey, no I'm absolutely glad you asked the question!

Some vendors have been known to doctor photo's to make lights look brighter. That's a dishonest practice to say the least in my book. I don't want anyone receiving my lights to be underwhelmed compared to the pictures. If anything, I prefer to dull them down a hair, so that they look even better in person when someone receives their bar, light pod, etc.

I know how I have and haven't been treated by vendors in the 4x4 world. To me being fair, honest, and having the best customer service you can possible build a business. Dishonesty and lying will only get you so far before it comes back on you Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok WHEW! I think that gets me caught up.

Once I get another free moment I'll send the PM's that I said I would.

Thanks!

- Justin
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very interesting stuff here as Ive been thinking about switching over to a light bar. freerider15 thank you so much for the info
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:07 am    Post subject: led's Reply with quote

Wow great price. Thanks for the PM. Will look for your ad here. I want one, hope you can take PayPal. Very Happy
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Sir Sam
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I wanted to show some comparison to the stock headlights on my 86. This is low beam compared to the LED light bar. This is done with my camera phone so the exposure is auto selected and I am not using a tripod.

Stock headlights, from the drivers seat, 1/15 sec at f / 2.2 ISO 2500.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is just the 22" lightbar from the drivers seat: 1/17 sec at f / 2.2, ISO 320,
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here is the lightbar and the stock headlights: 1/17 sec at f / 2.2, ISO 320,
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I know the ISO is very different between the two - its an iPhone so its does what it does. I can get some photos done with a tripod and a fixed exposure for comparison the the stock vanagon headlights - but that will have to wait(traveling for work again). iPhone photos were just a quick way to show the difference compared to VW stock headlights.

Stock headlights from the side: 1/15 sec at f / 2.2, ISO 2500
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Lightbar from the side: 1/15 sec at f / 2.2, ISO 640
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Again the ISO is different, but it should give you the idea. Feel free to poke at the exif data to see the settings.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:
Also, I know this is going to be me sounding like an asshat, but my interest is in getting balanced information out there for my forum brethren.

Justin - you've gotta do something about that comparison photo you are using to demonstrate how bright the LEDs are. I'm referring to the first photo with the Jeep headlights on high beam which you then compare to on the LED shots below it. Obviously, I am not there to see the test vehicle but something is worth pointing out. In the Jeep high beam photo, somehow we cannot even see the first telephone pole on the right. Based on there being 4 fence posts between the Jeep and the subject telephone pole and pasture fence posts typically being 10', I'm going to estimate the telephone pole is a mere 50 feet from the Jeep. And you cannot see it. 50 feet. Those must be the most anemic high beams I have ever seen - that is only 3 car lengths.

I don't know if the lenses are dirty, the camera is hypersensitive to the higher frequencies of your LED lights, or what, but I have to point this out for accuracy, balance, and fairness sake for my Samba brethren. You can tell I am not a fan of the current LED lights (yet), but that aside I think you need to provide a fair photo to start the comparison.


photogdave wrote:


Another aspect of light-testing photos posted here that I've never seen addressed (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
What camera settings are being used? The exposure and ISO settings have to be locked in from shot to shot to effectively show the differences in illumination. If any of the settings are on auto then the photos will be useless.


Those are both really good points!

Note: For transparency, Justin is a friend of mine. While I wish him the best in his business ventures the only compensation I receive is raiding his beer fridge. Monetarily I gain nothing if he sells you guys anything. I'm just a guy with a camera that knows a little bit about taking photos, I don't claim to be an expert in photography.

The comparison photos he posted earlier I took with my Canon T1i. I did my best to keep the photos consistent so we could get a baseline comparison between them. Yes the stock Jeep headlights on highbeams suck, and are about a good as stock vanagon headlights, I think most of us know what those are like. More than that the Jeep cherokee headlights are pretty common, all sorts of trucks and other vehicles use them. Just your standard sealed beam headlights that have been around for decades. We figured it made a pretty good comparison because many people have driven a vehicle with headlights like that, and plus I happen to have a stock jeep here. Stock headlights, stock height, stock wiring, clean headlights! And the left one I just replaced the day before we took these photos so I don't think anyone can comment about it being old and therefor dim.

Now exposure does change how bright the image is, I played around until I felt like we got an exposure setting that would work to demonstrate the brightest of the bright, and the dimmest of the dim(stock Jeep lights!). Honestly it was hard to find something that was a good compromise. In this case the road was snowy.....having an all white background does change the images. We would like to retake them once we have good snow melt occur and I am not on travel. Even then though I think the results will be the same - just skewed for a longer exposure since the ground is less reflective.

So I ended up with a fixed aperture - f22, and fixed film speed ISO1600. I picked this because it seemed to give me the best middle of the road results in terms of the exposure increments that are set in my cameras firmware. There is some noise so future photos(without snow) might get switched to ISO800 and f16. And I took several photos at different exposure times for each light so I could see what looked best on a computer instead of the postage stamp LCD on my camera(I ended up taking a photo at 4 secs, 3.2 secs, and 2 secs of each light).

And for the record, this is without headlights and without LED lights 4.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



So lets talk some comparison!


Jeep Highbeams, 4.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Jeep Highbeams(again) but at 15.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



So as you can see an almost 4 times longer exposure is much brighter! So it wouldn't be fair to take a 1 sec photo of the stock headlights, and a 15 sec exposure of an LED light. So all the photos are shown at the same exposure setting to give the most fair comparison I can think of.

That being said, lets again look at the lights:


Jeep Highbeams, 4.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the smallest dimmest LED, this is the light pod I have on the side of my luggage rack: 4.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the brightest of the bright: 4.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Now let me repeat the above same series, but at a 2 second exposure:



Jeep Highbeams, 2.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600,
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Small Pod: 2.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Brightest of the bright: 2.0 sec at f / 22, , , ISO 1600
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Now I realize that there may be some differences in the exact field of vision of the photo. It was cold, dark, and we bumped the tripod more than once.

This was where we were testing, a saw horse set in front of my jeep, hooking directly to my battery(only a few weeks old battery so its good!).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Now as far as a distance flag, I think we can use the phone poles for that, it should be possible to grab the distance between them from google maps. We picked this road because it had low traffic(so we wouldn't block the road for an hour), very little light pollution from street lights or other vehicles, it was an easily repeatable position that we can come back to in future weeks or months.
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Sam wrote:

Lightbar from the side: 1/15 sec at f / 2.2, ISO 640
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



You're lucky your neighbour doesn't have a pellet gun.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:

Lightbar from the side: 1/15 sec at f / 2.2, ISO 640
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



You're lucky your neighbour doesn't have a pellet gun.


Even if they did I don't see how they would be able to hit anything while being blinded so badly.
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