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msimoni
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: Brasil
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 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Hi guys... I had to re-do my engine, and now trying to get the timing I came to an issue: the engine will iddle smooth at about 25 degrees advance... and at 3000RPM's it will be reaching 45 degrees...
If I get it to 7,5 to 10 degrees at 1000RPM it will run rough, stutter on acceleration...
any ideas what is wrong?
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By Colella sand rail A.K.A.: "Electric Chair" - VW 2.150cc, dual EMPI HPMX44's, Engle W110, 44mm intake/35mm exaust dual spring valves, fully modded and ported heads, Pertonix Flame Thrower Distributor and Digital Ignition, Flamethrower Epoxi filled Coil, Flamethrower 8.8mm spar plug cables, Dual UMP air boxes 3"intake, Raised dual K&N 3"air filters, Full Rancho RS9000XL shocks, etc. |
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Mr.Duncan
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Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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with the engine sitting in a parking lot, not moving, and the vac line connected to the dizzy, you will see a high advance like that.
On the road, when the engine is UNDER LOAD, the vac signal drops. (so your max advance is really only the mechanical advance.
Just:
Unplug and block the vacuum line.
Rev to 3000 rpm
at that rpm adjust timing to 28*31* BTDC.
Re-hook the vac line up.
Cheers-
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
with the engine sitting in a parking lot, not moving, and the vac line connected to the dizzy, you will see a high advance like that.
On the road, when the engine is UNDER LOAD, the vac signal drops. (so your max advance is really only the mechanical advance.
Just:
Unplug and block the vacuum line.
Rev to 3000 rpm
at that rpm adjust timing to 28*31* BTDC.
Re-hook the vac line up.
Cheers- |
45 degrees is too high even it's running right which it's not. 36-40* with the advance working correctly at 3000+rpm's is normal.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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msimoni
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: Brasil
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys!
My ignition is a pertronix billet distributor with ignitor II, and a pertronix epoxi coil, so no vacuum here.
If I set my timing to about 10 degrees at iddle, it will run rough... could I have a timing shaft misplaced under my distributor when the engine was put back together? and this could lead to a wrong number reading at the pulley?
I've been thinking about that... since it feels, and starts easy and smooth at 25 degrees BTDC, and at over 3.000RPM's I see over 46 (even 50's) degrees BTDC, it would make sense, my reading could be about 10 degrees off, just the reading?
_________________
By Colella sand rail A.K.A.: "Electric Chair" - VW 2.150cc, dual EMPI HPMX44's, Engle W110, 44mm intake/35mm exaust dual spring valves, fully modded and ported heads, Pertonix Flame Thrower Distributor and Digital Ignition, Flamethrower Epoxi filled Coil, Flamethrower 8.8mm spar plug cables, Dual UMP air boxes 3"intake, Raised dual K&N 3"air filters, Full Rancho RS9000XL shocks, etc. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| msimoni wrote: |
| could I have a timing shaft misplaced under my distributor when the engine was put back together? and this could lead to a wrong number reading at the pulley? |
No... the orientation of the driveshaft will not change the crank timing.
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msimoni
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: Brasil
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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gee... wonder what could it be... when I removed the engine, it was 10 degrees at iddle and 32 at 3000rpm...
_________________
By Colella sand rail A.K.A.: "Electric Chair" - VW 2.150cc, dual EMPI HPMX44's, Engle W110, 44mm intake/35mm exaust dual spring valves, fully modded and ported heads, Pertonix Flame Thrower Distributor and Digital Ignition, Flamethrower Epoxi filled Coil, Flamethrower 8.8mm spar plug cables, Dual UMP air boxes 3"intake, Raised dual K&N 3"air filters, Full Rancho RS9000XL shocks, etc. |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Best range is 28-32° BTDC at 3000 rpm... Forget what idle timing is.... If your distributor puts in more than 20-22° centrifugal advance you can never get the two values you are looking for to work... You can't have 7.5 at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm....
The 7.5° BTDC is generally a "static" value not with engine running...
You dont drive your car at idle, you drive it at 3000 RPM...
Dale
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msimoni
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: Brasil
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Best range is 28-32° BTDC at 3000 rpm... Forget what idle timing is.... If your distributor puts in more than 20-22° centrifugal advance you can never get the two values you are looking for to work... You can't have 7.5 at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm....
The 7.5° BTDC is generally a "static" value not with engine running...
You dont drive your car at idle, you drive it at 3000 RPM...
Dale |
Thanks Dale!
I will ask my engine builder if he has put the gear that turns the distributor in the correct position, and have him here to double check it. Would that make me read over 10 degrees difference (let's say if he has put the gear one or two tooths after TDC position?
_________________
By Colella sand rail A.K.A.: "Electric Chair" - VW 2.150cc, dual EMPI HPMX44's, Engle W110, 44mm intake/35mm exaust dual spring valves, fully modded and ported heads, Pertonix Flame Thrower Distributor and Digital Ignition, Flamethrower Epoxi filled Coil, Flamethrower 8.8mm spar plug cables, Dual UMP air boxes 3"intake, Raised dual K&N 3"air filters, Full Rancho RS9000XL shocks, etc. |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| msimoni wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Best range is 28-32° BTDC at 3000 rpm... Forget what idle timing is.... If your distributor puts in more than 20-22° centrifugal advance you can never get the two values you are looking for to work... You can't have 7.5 at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm....
The 7.5° BTDC is generally a "static" value not with engine running...
You dont drive your car at idle, you drive it at 3000 RPM...
Dale |
Thanks Dale!
I will ask my engine builder if he has put the gear that turns the distributor in the correct position, and have him here to double check it. Would that make me read over 10 degrees difference (let's say if he has put the gear one or two tooths after TDC position? |
The gear has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT...... Its all about where timing mark on pulley is located in relationship to case split line when points "open" for # 1 cylinder...
What is total mechanical advance internal in distributor?...
Do you understand how to static set timing?
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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FACTORY spec allowed up to 44 degrees of total timing. The limit is NOT 40 degrees.
| udidwht wrote: |
| 45 degrees is too high even it's running right which it's not. 36-40* with the advance working correctly at 3000+rpm's is normal. |
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msimoni
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2013
Posts: 18
Location: Brasil
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| msimoni wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Best range is 28-32° BTDC at 3000 rpm... Forget what idle timing is.... If your distributor puts in more than 20-22° centrifugal advance you can never get the two values you are looking for to work... You can't have 7.5 at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm....
The 7.5° BTDC is generally a "static" value not with engine running...
You dont drive your car at idle, you drive it at 3000 RPM...
Dale |
Thanks Dale!
I will ask my engine builder if he has put the gear that turns the distributor in the correct position, and have him here to double check it. Would that make me read over 10 degrees difference (let's say if he has put the gear one or two tooths after TDC position? |
The gear has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT...... Its all about where timing mark on pulley is located in relationship to case split line when points "open" for # 1 cylinder...
What is total mechanical advance internal in distributor?...
Do you understand how to static set timing?
Dale |
Dale
Not sure about static timing.
My distributor will mechanically (centrifugal) advance 24 degrees .
I have set the timing on the distributor with both valves on cyl one closed . Is there any tips on this? Thanks
_________________
By Colella sand rail A.K.A.: "Electric Chair" - VW 2.150cc, dual EMPI HPMX44's, Engle W110, 44mm intake/35mm exaust dual spring valves, fully modded and ported heads, Pertonix Flame Thrower Distributor and Digital Ignition, Flamethrower Epoxi filled Coil, Flamethrower 8.8mm spar plug cables, Dual UMP air boxes 3"intake, Raised dual K&N 3"air filters, Full Rancho RS9000XL shocks, etc. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| msimoni wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
| msimoni wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Best range is 28-32° BTDC at 3000 rpm... Forget what idle timing is.... If your distributor puts in more than 20-22° centrifugal advance you can never get the two values you are looking for to work... You can't have 7.5 at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm....
The 7.5° BTDC is generally a "static" value not with engine running...
You dont drive your car at idle, you drive it at 3000 RPM...
Dale |
Thanks Dale!
I will ask my engine builder if he has put the gear that turns the distributor in the correct position, and have him here to double check it. Would that make me read over 10 degrees difference (let's say if he has put the gear one or two tooths after TDC position? |
The gear has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT...... Its all about where timing mark on pulley is located in relationship to case split line when points "open" for # 1 cylinder...
What is total mechanical advance internal in distributor?...
Do you understand how to static set timing?
Dale |
Dale
Not sure about static timing.
My distributor will mechanically (centrifugal) advance 24 degrees .
I have set the timing on the distributor with both valves on cyl one closed . Is there any tips on this? Thanks |
To set static timing #1 cylinder has to be on compression stroke (both valves closed)...
Crank pulley has to be on 7.5° BTDC...
Put a test lamp across across negative (-) terminal of coil and ground.
Turn key on (do not start)..
Loosen and rotate distributor till lamp just comes on... Tighten distributor (be sure rotor is still pointing to #1 tower on dist cap) ..
Your static timing is now set at 7.5° BTDC...
With 24° mechanical advance and 7.5° of static timing your total timing should be about 31.5 degrees at full advance (3000+ RPM) ...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
FACTORY spec allowed up to 44 degrees of total timing. The limit is NOT 40 degrees.
| udidwht wrote: |
| 45 degrees is too high even it's running right which it's not. 36-40* with the advance working correctly at 3000+rpm's is normal. |
|
More like 44 degrees with max vacuum advance.
That may have been true from the factory but with a distributor from today?
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Zylinderkopf
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2012
Posts: 679
Location: SE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
FACTORY spec allowed up to 44 degrees of total timing. The limit is NOT 40 degrees.
| udidwht wrote: |
| 45 degrees is too high even it's running right which it's not. 36-40* with the advance working correctly at 3000+rpm's is normal. |
|
More like 44 degrees with max vacuum advance.
That may have been true from the factory but with a distributor from today? |
Got my Pertronix running at 44 total advance without pinging or overheating issues. I found that if I set the timing any lower it won’t idle right. Was concerned at first but it’s been running well this way for a couple of years now.
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laker
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 196
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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| If you have a shop that has a dyno in your area see if you can get 1/2 hour on it and time the car on the dyno (my favorite way to time a vehicle)...put the vehicle under a steady load, loosen the distributor, advance the timing slowly until starts to ping then back it off till stops pinging, tighten distributor and check your timing at idle & 3,000 rpms for future reference. |
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jeffinohio
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Joined: February 02, 2017
Posts: 197
Location: Scio Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Pertronics SVDA on mine is set at 44 degrees total.Stock 1600DP.No ping or heat issues.6000 miles on it.
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Zylinderkopf wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
FACTORY spec allowed up to 44 degrees of total timing. The limit is NOT 40 degrees.
| udidwht wrote: |
| 45 degrees is too high even it's running right which it's not. 36-40* with the advance working correctly at 3000+rpm's is normal. |
|
More like 44 degrees with max vacuum advance.
That may have been true from the factory but with a distributor from today? |
Got my Pertronix running at 44 total advance without pinging or overheating issues. I found that if I set the timing any lower it won’t idle right. Was concerned at first but it’s been running well this way for a couple of years now. |
Consider yourself lucky. Those Pertronix dizzies are all over the map in-terms of overall advance. No 2 are alike.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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mikedjames
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 2742
Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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At 1000 rpm you may already be seeing some centrifugal advance. Back off to 850-900 rpm and set the timing.. may be iterative ..
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
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Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Not sure if this is right or not, but this is what I do.
I make sure #1 is on power stroke and at tdc.
After verifying the rotor points to #1, I turn the key on and rotate the dizzy back and forth until I hear the 'click' made by the pertronix unit. Then I know I am good to fire it up.
Once started I use the timing light to see where the max advance is and lock it down.
Again, not sure if thats right or not. I run a German uh oh 9 and had it on a sp 1641.
Any input?
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Busstom
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Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 3847
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| msimoni wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
| msimoni wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Best range is 28-32° BTDC at 3000 rpm... Forget what idle timing is.... If your distributor puts in more than 20-22° centrifugal advance you can never get the two values you are looking for to work... You can't have 7.5 at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm....
The 7.5° BTDC is generally a "static" value not with engine running...
You dont drive your car at idle, you drive it at 3000 RPM...
Dale |
Thanks Dale!
I will ask my engine builder if he has put the gear that turns the distributor in the correct position, and have him here to double check it. Would that make me read over 10 degrees difference (let's say if he has put the gear one or two tooths after TDC position? |
The gear has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT...... Its all about where timing mark on pulley is located in relationship to case split line when points "open" for # 1 cylinder...
What is total mechanical advance internal in distributor?...
Do you understand how to static set timing?
Dale |
Dale
Not sure about static timing.
My distributor will mechanically (centrifugal) advance 24 degrees .
I have set the timing on the distributor with both valves on cyl one closed . Is there any tips on this? Thanks |
To set static timing #1 cylinder has to be on compression stroke (both valves closed)...
Crank pulley has to be on 7.5° BTDC...
Put a test lamp across across negative (-) terminal of coil and ground.
Turn key on (do not start)..
Loosen and rotate distributor till lamp just comes on... Tighten distributor (be sure rotor is still pointing to #1 tower on dist cap) ..
Your static timing is now set at 7.5° BTDC...
With 24° mechanical advance and 7.5° of static timing your total timing should be about 31.5 degrees at full advance (3000+ RPM) ...
Dale |
Dale, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he could set static timing with an Ignitor. I said "could" because the OP hasn't reported back to this thread, so we don't know his outcome or just what he ended up doing. |
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